00:00

Welcome to Make More Money without Selling Your Soul with me Polly Lavarello, evergreen marketing expert. This podcast is for you if you are an online entrepreneur who is looking to simplify their business to scale.  On this podcast you can expect to hear regular talk about wealth, about selling and about wellbeing. Because I believe these three core fundamental things are pivotal to your growth moving forward.

00:44

Welcome Quajo to the show. I’m so excited to have my first US, actually, no second US interview ever. You know it’s exciting to talk to people across the pond, and actually you’re my first male guest. But most importantly, for anyone who is new to Quajo, please tell us a bit more about who you are and what you do.

01:05

So I am a Facebook and Instagram ads strategist and co-host, along with my wife, who’s the other co-host of The Art of online business podcast where we help online course creators, coaches, memberships, owners like with advice and tips and tricks and strategies to scale up their businesses from mid four figure months to high six figure years. And of course, we do behind the scenes, Facebook and Instagram ads, tips, amazing and what got you into Facebook and Instagram ads?

01:38

Take yourself back in time with me to the capital of China. My wife and I are sitting in a cafe, and we’re enjoying some good Mediterranean food, dipping like pita bread, the flat, you know, circular bread into hums, and we’re looking over one of the busiest strips in the capital of Beijing, a shopping strip, if you will. And next to us, there’s two Russian girls that see me, and they recognize me because I was pretty famous back then. And so they come over and they interrupt us and smile, and they want to take selfies with me. And I start here, because what happened was, before the pandemic in China. I was using Facebook ads incorrectly to grow my other business. I was a black guy in China teaching expatriates over there how to learn Mandarin Chinese. I had been boosting Instagram posts, and it got me to like a Hollywood B Lister level, wow fame, yeah, like, three to four out of 10 expats you know on the street would recognize my face and, like, want to take pictures with me. And it felt really good. But I’m sure you understand that not every Instagram follower turns into a paying client, but it was a good ride. And then specifically, we decided to take a vacation to Mexico. Unfortunately, on January 13, 2020 right before the pandemic started, and we got stranded in Mexico with one check in luggage, two kids, nine months old and three years old at the time, and basically the pandemic, China decided to quarantine hardcore. And so nobody was running around using my methods to learn Mandarin Chinese in China anymore. I couldn’t pivot that business. The whole thing, 12 years of being in China, everything grinded to a halt, bled out a lot of our savings. I couldn’t pivot that business, and so that came crashing down in a wonderful ball of fire, and I had to take the I guess you could call them the transferable skills of online course creation and the incorrect skills of Facebook ads management. And I got myself a part time job coaching in a high level group coaching program, and then being a junior ad manager inside of an ADS agency for Facebook and Instagram ads, and that’s where I leveled up both skills. And fast forward to today. I have my own business doing those things. Amazing.

04:12

Wow, yeah. And I kind of feel like Facebook, and I mean, obviously it’s meta ads, right? It’s kind of it’s referred to as Facebook, Instagram, but I guess, for anyone listening who’s unsure of you, know they’re all one in the same thing, right? Yeah, I feel like the way certain platforms, particularly Instagram, has become in this last year, in that it’s so saturated that it feels like they’re more important than ever. Like, what’s your take on the relevancy of running ads now compared to what it was when you first started out in 2020

04:45

it’s a whole different and more competitive game now, just like you’ve seen across the online business space, like with the huge influx of folks with a passion teaching online, there’s just more competition where. Dealing with a much more savvy buyer who has more choices, and that makes running ads more challenging, but yes, it’s it’s not exactly pay to play in the negative way, as in ADS will only people think, and it’s a myth that ads will only work if you can spend a large amount of money, and that’s not true, ads will work just fine if you’re willing to do the testing, as in multiple visuals, multiple ad copy, and really like in any kind of messaging, in the business research, the person who you are helping, then ads can work still, but it does take more work than it did back in the day. You used to run ads before you told me, before we hit record? Yeah,

05:42

yeah, it’s one of those things that I do feel like it’s quite a lot for the average online business owner. If they’re a coach, let’s say, and they’ve kind of qualified and how to do coaching, and then they have to figure out reels, or, you know, LinkedIn, or whichever platform they’re choosing. And then I feel like advertising is almost a kind of scientific lens on marketing, which can be quite a big stretch for people, what you’ve just referred to as testing and AB testing, and these are all relatively new terms to a lot of people, when they’re starting out doing it by themselves and where they spend time on advertising, where they spend money, it suddenly feels so much more scary. Even though time is money, right,

06:26

it is. Let’s so let’s, I mean, you wanted to talk about the signs of like, whether it’s good to start Facebook ads, and let’s make it less scary. There’s, there’s one big mistake that plenty of folks make, which is that, oh, if I just get more eyeballs on my offer, then it’s going to work. And I can, you know, maybe spend 1000 or 2000 pounds, and we don’t want somebody to do that, like I always say, Jesus saves Facebook ads do not and extra eyeballs, right? Extra eyeballs on a bad offer does not a profitable business make. And so that’s the biggest thing is, is the offer selling organically? Is there a healthy profit margin? And, you know, somebody would have to track the numbers, some. And when I say track the numbers, I mean, if we’re doing a very traditional launch, then how many leads are we bringing into that launch? And then how much money are we making off the back end of that launch? And we take our total revenue, we divide it by the number of leads, and hopefully we come out with a figure. Let’s call it 70 pounds earning per lead. Wonderful. Then you can expect that if you have to pay for traffic, as long as you’re not paying more than, like, 15 pounds per lead, you should be good to go, because that gap between your cost per lead and your earnings per lead is significant. And of course, the calculations get to be a little more nuanced if you have a smaller profit gap, and also, if you have, like, a membership, for example, where usually that first month is a loss profit wise, but then because of churn people staying in four or five months, you know that you’re profitable on every lead in the second month and so on and so forth. But as long as you have a healthy offer selling, then it makes sense to try ads and you can continue to read the rest of the science.

08:21

Yeah, no, I really like that. And I also really like that you just mentioned, I don’t say 15 pound or $15 leads, but I know some people I’m trying to on the fly is not over there, so, oh, I appreciate that. But I was thinking some people that brought brought up a question for me, because I think one of the biggest challenges potentially coaches face when they start looking at advertising is that there is a lot of conversation in the online space emphasizing low cost leads, emphasizing, you know, get as many leads as you can for your budget. And yeah, and I think that’s quite a dangerous narrative, because what you just shared in regards to the cost per lead and the money you’re making back, like, what’s your take on all of that? Because I do see people flexing that all the time, and I personally haven’t had the best experience with that, but I’m curious to know what yours

09:16

So if you go to my website, I believe it says I will get you the highest quality lead for the lowest cost possible. So here’s a quote from a former president way back in the day in the US. I believe it’s Thomas Edison, and it goes that we usually miss out on opportunity because it comes dressed up in overalls and it looks like work, and all this is to say that the work is refining your messaging, and if your messaging is on point, then it will resonate with the people who you want to serve, and then that means those folks are going to see your ad and be at Four. A lead magnet. Be it for a low ticket offer, they’ll come in at the lowest cost possible because you’re attracting the right folks and the wrong folks. No, it’s not for them, but just going after super low cost leads. Well, we get into that comparison game, right? Paulie, like, prices are different across different niches and even different businesses in the same niche, and so just going for low cost. If we wanted to do that, we could just show ads to North Africa, Middle Eastern region, and we’d get plenty of leads for like, several what’s the word? Is it? Several pins. Yeah, right. Okay, okay. International American in the house, no and and those leads would not convert to sales, because most of us who are, say, in the UK, in the US, in Australia, New Zealand, the offer we’re selling could be many multiple times somebody’s monthly income, or even going up to like half of your income in those regions. So it’s not just about low cost, it’s about that difference per Oh,

11:08

my God, thank you so much for sharing that. Because I just feel like there’s so many people who need to hear that right now. I think that alone already, people are like, Oh, okay. Because honestly, even today, I had a conversation with someone who told me she had bought in 600 leads via Facebook ads to a webinar, tried and tested webinar. Tried and tested ad. One person attended the webinar, not one sale. Oh my gosh, my heart goes out to her. I know isn’t that the password story did she? Did she figure out the problem, like, why nobody showed up?

11:37

I wasn’t able to audit them to see what was going on there. But I was like, I mean, I could see it was great that she had the control element of the tested ad and the tested webinar. So it indicates to me, I did say, Well, where was the targeting for these leads, and what was going on here? Because she said the cost per lead had never been so low. And I was like, well, without having looked at the data, the indication to me is that something is awry with those leads that doesn’t feel right at all. So that brings me really nicely. Oh, sorry, you go ahead. So I’ll

12:04

insert this, and it’s a bit of a self plug, but I do one on one Facebook and Instagram ad coaching, specifically for folks who their business like profit doesn’t make sense quite to hire an ad manager with a monthly retainer fee. And when I was doing this for a gentleman in August, he was on, like, his fourth successful launch, and we looked at his launch registration ads and noticed the exact same thing you just told me, his leads were coming in really cheap, like, inexpensively. And I’m like, Uh oh, red flag. Like, cheaper leads is good, but not this cheap. Turns out, when he had duplicated his previously running ads from the previous launch, he somehow meta automatically switched the country targeting to worldwide. And so he was bringing in folks from like India and Sri Lanka and Pakistan. And I’m like, Thank God, we caught it, and it was only like six days into his ads running, because that would have absolutely killed his launch revenue. And then, you know, we can touch on all the funnel things, maybe in another episode. But yeah,

13:18

yeah, that’s one of the challenges right with now that meta has all these kind of AI functions. And so went like, I know, I noticed that the other day when I duplicated a campaign, it said, Oh, we’ve made a whole lot of optimizations. We’re like, what optimizations? I don’t want optimizations. This is doing pretty fine. Thank you. Like, don’t optimize anything for me. But actually, as you were talking and you talked about your promise around quality leads. I thought that would lead. I mean, as soon as I heard that, I was like, okay, still the tea. I want to know, what is it that you do that ensures you’re attracting quality leads. You don’t have to give away all the gossip. But you know, if you were to give like, one or two pointers towards attracting quality leads. What would you advise?

14:04

Testing, testing, testing. I’ll touch on my Olympic gold medal testing framework, because it just is. It’s the unsexy part of Facebook ads, and it comes down to testing. Right? Think back to the Olympics of this past summer in Paris, right? And specifically, I’m a track and field guy, and I get caught up in the competition for the fastest man in the world, and it was between Noah Lyles of the US and Kane Thompson of Jamaica. And I think of the athletics, or track and field, as we used to call it, back in the day, qualifying heats for the 100 meter sprint, right? You have a lot of contestants first, and then they race in, like eight at a time, and the fastest two, to oversimplify it, progress to the next round. You have your semi finals, and then the finals. Okay, if we, and the listener right now, who’s running ads, approach our ads like that. And start with several different variations of ad copy. Eliminate the variables. Put all those three pieces of ad copy with the same exact visual, the same exact headline, headlines, that bold text that shows up below the ad, next to that blue call to action button that usually says, Learn More, download or book a call, if we do that, and run ads for a handful of days, then we see what is the best ad copy, because that was the only different variable. And then we take that best ad copy and we line it up with several different visuals and run it for another few days, and now we can see what is the best combination of that winning ad copy with whatever visual. We try some more visuals for another handful of days, and the goal is that you have two to three ads that are getting because you already did your research. We’re assuming that your ad copy is already on point. Therefore we can now say that the lowest cost per lead between like, three ads running. That would be a great scenario where the algorithm can a ping pong between those three ads. We don’t have to be stressing out every day, like, is my one ad and one image, like converting well, like, oh no. Now what do I do? Cut off ads, and two weeks later, when I find the time, I have to remake things. Now that’s That’s my secret to getting quality leads. It’s just good testing. I

16:23

love that. And so would you then recommend somebody starting with list building ads rather than going straight into a launch? Because the only thing I did something at the beginning of this year, in fact, I decided to run two webinars, exactly the same webinar, exactly the same offer. But the first time I ran ads, I called it how to create a gold standard group program, and my cost per lead wasn’t amazing, so I didn’t really scale it, but I had a fabulous return on investment, like the people who showed up were really good quality leads established business owners, just like I wanted. And then I thought, let’s see if we can bring this cost per lead down, because it seemed a bit higher than it should be that time of year, because it was January, and usually January is pretty good to me. So I did how to create a Give it to me now, group, program, everything else stayed the same, so I just swapped out the words gold standard for Give it to me now, because I thought, well, you know, it’s kind of the same message, but just expressed differently. And the business owners that attracted in were really early on, and I didn’t convert from a webinar that converted amazingly, and the return on investment was phenomenal. I had loads of people actually reach out to me afterwards and asked to have conversations, but I actually didn’t even really encourage them to join, because they just weren’t at the right stage. But I kind of liked because I’m a geek, I kind of like that. It happened to me. I liked to be able to give that example of how two words or three in the case of what I changed it for, totally impacted the kind of person that came in. But had I done that as list building, I wouldn’t have had to learn in such an expensive way. Yeah, you

17:57

are exactly right. So you experience is the hardest teacher, right? Because the test comes first and the lesson comes after. There you go. Like your messaging, you tested it, and you’re absolutely right. Like messaging, why not test that sort of thing in lower stakes ads, like a freebie or lead magnet ads. Of course, you know, for the person listening, there’s no point in running a lead magnet ad if you don’t have some sort of way to convert those leads into customers further on down the funnel. But sure, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

18:33

Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting with ads, right? Because you can either do things organically and learn the slow way, or you can pay to learn the quick way with ads, and it depends on So, okay, so we’ve got the whole quality leads comes through testing in terms of what you’re seeing. So obviously, people are gonna be listening to this talk towards the end of 2024 going into 2025 you know, it’s a good time of year to be running ads if they were thinking about creating their first ad. You know, at the moment, I’m seeing videos. I’m seeing some carousels, I’m seeing graphics like, what are you seeing? That’s working best, particularly in the coaching consulting space, considering that’s the main kind of listener to this, this podcast.

19:16

All right, here’s a disclaimer. I’m just some random guy on the internet, you know nothing, even though I make a good living and provide for my family doing Facebook ads, nothing I say you know, can be taken too seriously, and you should go and do the testing for yourself in your own business niche. Now that I’ve said that for my clients, I’m seeing that video right now. Works pretty well. I love to go to it by default. Do I start with it? I do not. I start with graphics, text on images, because those are more instantly consumable by somebody who’s viewing an ad, and thus it lends itself to more easily testing, whereas a video, there’s so many components, like, how well edited is it? You know? Are you. Wearing on camera. Do you have a good hook in the beginning? Because in this day and age with Tiktok and Instagram reels, we’re like, swipe, swipe, swipe, really quick. And so like these things matter for video, but after I do the testing, yes, I’m seeing that video tends to work better. And so like a coach consultant, they could first look at the video and the types of common themes in successful in their successful Instagram organic reels that are performing well, okay, and the filter is of those ones that are performing well, which are related to the offer that they’re thinking about running ads to be it free lead magnet or paid offer. Then they can start testing those and see which one performs the best. And that would be that would already put them ahead of the game, because they’re looking at what’s working organically. First nice Is there any particular length of video that you think’s performing better, or do you think it’s super specific to the industry? And like you say, more based on market research.

20:58

In this case, if you were my client, I would tell you to come out with a minute 32nd videos, never shorter than 30 seconds, although those kind of reels or B roll where you put text on the screen that kind of performs well organically, but when we’re running ads, we always want to be building retargeting audiences, and so the video needs to be long enough So that meta can tell on Facebook and Instagram who’s actually been watching what percentage of the video. So we can maybe retarget the people who’ve watched half of the video and they’re more interested in the folks who just watched three seconds. Are you tracking with me? Yeah. So I would say, Yeah. I would very specifically say, if you’re going to test some brand new video, make it a minute and 30 seconds long, speak to a pain point that you know your offer or lead magnet solves. And then we can test, you know, all other things equal. Then we can test engagement and which video is getting watched the longest, which has the lowest? Here’s a technical term. Cost Per through play, through play would be a 15 second view. So which video is attracting people and keeping them engaged for 15 seconds at the cheapest rate, and then also, which video is giving you your lowest cost per lead? I know I just got really technical really quick, if you need to just listen to that part again, but yeah, I would specifically advise that, yeah, yeah, it’s okay. This is a slightly advanced level conversation RAM and, you know, ads, but I think there’s enough people running them who are going to find this super helpful. I mean, so when it comes to videos, are you running those top of funnel and lead magnets as retargeting, or you doing a bit of both? This is me getting kind of geeky here as well, but I’m curious to know what context you’re using these videos, both

22:40

and my top of funnel, as in the videos that people see who are cold to my business, who have never entered my business, ecosphere, and don’t know me from Tom. I use videos for those because I can build up a retargeting audience of people who have viewed a certain percentage of that video and retarget them with my lead magnet or my low ticket offer. But I don’t only re target them. I usually am running ads to cold audiences for my lead magnet because I don’t want to show my email list a lead magnet they’ve already opted in for. And I will exclude the warm audiences, which would be the people who are already pretty familiar with me, folks who’ve visited my website, who follow me on Instagram or Facebook, who have already seen a certain percentage of the video. I usually exclude those from Lead Magnet ads. That way, I know I’m growing my list with people who are new to my business, but if I’m selling something, then, yeah, I do retarget, for sure, those people who have seen one of my discovery videos, if you will, and engaged with it. I love that.

23:48

Oh, my goodness. This is like a kind of, you know, consultation session. I’m really enjoying it. Amazing. Okay, so we talked about the kind of anatomy, you know the kind of well, the visuals that would go with an ad. We’ve talked about the cost per lead kind of argument and how we have to be careful with the quality of lead, which obviously leads nicely into kind of the visuals and videos we haven’t touched on copy, and I feel like we’d be doing a disservice to our listener if we didn’t talk about that as well, because then we’ve covered the whole, you know, the whole 360 so again, I see varying kind of bits of advice, you know, for example, I know when you go into meta at the moment, it encourages you with AI to use very short form copy for ads, I see the likes of Marie Forleo, who’s doing really, really Well, or obviously running ads all the time, running very, very short ads. Then at the same time, you see the kind of essay, long levels of copy for ads. I personally am somewhere in between, neither short nor really long. I find if I’m on a new account, I’d do a longer ad. But usually with mine, I’m somewhere in the middle. And I find those. Are working well, but what’s your take you’re running? I mean, I don’t I only run my own ads these days. I don’t see, I don’t see the big, vast world of ads like I used to. So I’m curious to know, what do you find performs best when it comes to attracting quality leads with advertising copy?

25:13

Are you gonna love this answer?

25:17

I have one client who has no ad copy and a white image with black text on it, and that thing converts so well into her weekly webinar, where she has a six figure a month business based off sales of this weekly webinar. Okay, that’s one end of the ad copy spectrum. No ad copy. Add a really basic image with text on the other end, I have a client in a different niche, and her ad copy is like that link that converts the best for her is between 250 to like 330 ish words. I know this number pretty exactly, because we just finished up about a month ago a launch debrief, because her launch was in September. So the ad copy question is, what is working best with your audience? Test different links. And then you’ll see, for my new clients, I usually when in my first three batches of ad copy that I produce for them, like short for me is 125 words. Like long for me is 225 words, like an intermediate link, like about 150 275 words, you know, yeah, hard and fast rule to start off with, there’s no straightforward answer, right?

26:35

No, exactly. I mean, funnily enough, I remember advising this to a lot of my clients who would get very attached to what they thought the outcome would be of each ad creative or copy I’d share with them, and I’d say, Please suspend any any opinions or attachments to any of these because the data is going to tell us. And nearly always, the thing I thought would perform least well would would surprise us. The only thing I ever saw a commonality with was, if someone was wearing red or pink, the creative nearly always performed better right now and then.

27:10

Now it stayed as I have it, right? But funny enough, when you mentioned as well about the no copy thing, it reminded me my first when I first became a Facebook Ads Manager. It was back in 2019 actually, but in 2020 I took on my first coaching client. And I actually, I was so new to running ads, I was so kind of green and still learning that I’d managed to accidentally hit publish on an ad that had no copy on it except for, you know, underneath the actual image. And it was also for a webinar. And hilariously, I remember having like, you know, I had a supervisor who, kind of like, we’d all have a meeting once a week, and she would kind of talk on my behalf. Of talk on my behalf, and I would just be there to kind of get the client feedback and stuff. And they kind of said, what happened with this Polly like, there’s no copy that, but it’s, it’s also one of the best performing ads. Was that intentional? Where did you learn that trick? And I was like, um, it’s kind of kept quiet. Well, that’s a happy, happy accident, right there. But, I mean, that’s great. That’s a great story. Have you heard of beginners luck?

28:06

Yeah, I doubt, yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think a lot of people had beginners luck back in 2020, I think you could, pretty much, you know, drop anything on the internet and it make a sale. That wasn’t a slight, but it was to bring up. Have you heard about the science behind beginner’s luck? No, tell me more. Okay, so beginner’s luck isn’t it’s, it’s, you could call it a scientific term. There is a bit of a science behind it. And the reason beginner’s luck happens fairly regularly is because, as we become experts in a game, right? We know the rules and we know let’s call if it’s chess, if it’s Domino’s, if it’s my favorite board game, Ticket to Ride. We know the rules and we know how to win. And so as we all get better and compete with each other, we tend to do the same tactics to win, right? Whereas, right, yeah, the patterns. A beginner comes in, and they don’t know nothing, so they just try random things. One thing is like, the expert is kind of thrown off by the randomness, and so sometimes loses to the beginner, because the beginner just catches them off guard, and the expert doesn’t know what to do in the beginner isn’t biased towards anything. They’re just kind of having fun and trying it out. And so that usually helps the beginner do better. But for folks like you and me in the online business space, the beginner can also more than not have beginners luck, because they are open to different strategies and trying random things. And so how can we apply this? That’s how it’s scientific. That’s why it happens over and over again. So how can we apply this to Facebook and Instagram ads? Is do what we know to do according to best practices, but once we get results that are hitting like our metrics, where we want them to be, then we kind of reserve a. Smaller portion of the budget to try some random things, maybe we take a risk. And I say take a risk specifically for all those suggestions that meta ad manager gives us, like, like the AI short little ad copy, why not try it with a smaller percent of the budget as a controlled test against what’s already working, and then you can see, you know, they can so put beginner’s luck to work for you. Yeah,

30:28

I love that, because I think it’s one of those things that the moment something becomes a trend and everyone’s doing it, then already it’s going to stop working as well. And so you if you can be ahead of the curve and be doing something else. I also liked what you touched on there as well, about having a small budget for, you know, testing and experimenting. And I, I almost feel like that’s something that people, you know, having a budget that people understand is going towards advertising, and just to know that that is a set amount that they are, you know, like, is it? I mean, I guess the problem with being self employed is a lot of people kind of don’t have that company mindset. I come from, you know, an agency background, so to me, you would never not have some of your money put aside for advertising and, you know, all the other pieces. But you know, early on in business, I think people can tell themselves the story that, you know, I’ll just put my time and energy into it. I’ll do all the things that are, you know, new and not new all the things that are more readily and easily available, but actually advertising, once you can get past that initial learning curve, is so much easier. And I think one of the biggest challenges I’ve personally seen, particularly with those earlier on with advertising, is a strong emotional attachment to the outcome with the message or the what they’re investing right? And I think there’s that whole element, if you’ve already written off that summer money, because it’s just for advertising, and just recognize that you’re going to learn, like you say, with this testing, then it’s much easier to not feel tempted to drop tools, which is, I think is one of the biggest mistakes I see people making in the coaching space, is like it didn’t work, so I’m not doing it anymore.

31:58

My folks go to you for help.  No, I’m just so happy to hear everything you’re saying about testing, because I don’t think it’s spoken about enough. I think people look at testing and they think, well, that failed, or I didn’t get my money back, and they don’t recognize it as an intrinsic element to you know, if you’re not testing, you’re never going to get to the stage where you can actually make money. And that’s also why I don’t do ads anymore, because I was so tired of it. So I’m very happy there’s someone wonderful like you that does do them. So I mean, if anyone’s listening to this and thinking, Okay, this sounds tempting, like I now feel more confident about I’m going to create a video, I’m going to do the copy, I’m going to I’m going to test, I’m going to play, I’m going to do some market research, I’m going to put a budget aside. Are there any other tips, any pointers you’d give them to help them get started within the context of they already have a funnel or offer that’s converting well, then I just want to spread a positive message of hope. If we do the work like there’s so much there’s so much money waiting to be made with Facebook ads, we just tend to want to throw ads at a solution that ads weren’t meant to solve, and that would be a bad offer, or one that isn’t performing as well as it could spend the time there, but like, if you’re listening now and you already have a great offer, you should try some ads in a very calculated manner, because That’s how your business is really going to scale. You get to unshackle yourself from the algorithm.

You know that as long as you’re testing different messaging, different visuals, that maybe the first time you won’t succeed. But no, it’s not failure. It’s just you haven’t figured it out yet, and in the meantime, your money’s going towards very good learning about what visuals are working for you, what messaging is or is not working for you. That learning, yes, it hurts when we lose some money to ads, but we’re kind of paying that ignorance tax or this learning education fee. It’s like go to uni pay for a good major. You know, nobody blinks an eye at that. Well, some people do, but nobody bats an eye, really, too much at that. And it makes sense to have that same thought process for ads, because you can learn so much if the offer is already performing. Well, I keep saying that because,

34:15

yeah, yeah, no, but it makes sense like you wouldn’t say, I’m not going to make pancakes because the first one might just not hold the correct form. You put two or three in the pan and and be patient knowing that you had the right ingredients. And ultimately, with Facebook advertising like you say it makes people millions of pounds like, millions and billions of pounds like, it’s incredible what it can do. And I think it is one of those things that if you’ve not seen it before, it can be hard. It can be hard to believe that it’s possible. But, yeah, it’s incredible what Facebook ads can do. Okay, this has been so, so helpful. No, sorry. What did you want to say?

34:45

I was gonna say, might I add too that what we learned from Facebook ads we can easily apply to our sales page. You know, visuals are working, we can apply it to our email funnel for messaging too. If. See new ad messaging that we tested that’s working. We’re like, Huh, that’s not my sales page or in my emails. There we go. So it really helps.

35:08

Yeah, no. 100% because also, like, what I see with some people is they’ll have a lead magnet that does well with their existing following, and then the second they put ads to it, it’s not working anymore. And I’m like, well, that’s a really useful thing to know that indicates, unless someone likes and knows and trusts you, they’re not interested. And like you say, that they could learn that the slow way and have a lead magnet that’s being downloaded really slowly organically, or learn that really fast with ads. And like you see, you don’t need to spend very much money. This has been so refreshing. And I just love I mean, honestly, I’ve never had so much joy talking about ads.

35:41

I like talking to you. You’re just fun to have a conversation with.  Well, it’s fun. It’s always fun to geek out over these things. So if anyone’s been listening and thinking, Oh my God, I need some quadro magic in my life, because I hate ads, and he sounds like a very charming, fun person to support me with all the knowledge and all the expertise, how can where can they find you, and how can you support them?

36:03

You can find me on the art of online business. That’s a podcast, and it’s my website, where we talk about ads, and we also have guests like you on to talk about all the things that help online course creators grow their businesses. And specifically for you that’s listening right now, I have this $17 course called the ad testing cheat code, where Perfect, yeah, and it’s not $17 for you, it’s gonna be $1 and that link, I’m sure you’ll link up. But basically, why? Figured it all out yourself. You can just, I’ve managed almost $4 million in ad spend. You can just learn exactly how I test ads and then apply it to your own ads in a super affordable way.

36:50

So, oh my gosh, what a steal. Thank you so much. That’s so generous of you. And yes, well, now that you’ve been sold on testing, you know that it’s a total no brainer to head down into the show notes and download that. Quajo, thank you so much for your time today. I’ve so enjoyed this conversation with you.

37:08

Thanks for having me. Polly, this was a really fun conversation.