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Welcome to Make More Money without Selling Your Soul with me Polly Lavarello, evergreen marketing expert. This podcast is for you if you are an online entrepreneur who is looking to simplify their business to scale.  On this podcast you can expect to hear regular talk about wealth, about selling and about wellbeing. Because I believe these three core fundamental things are pivotal to your growth moving forward.

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Hello, and welcome to make more money without selling your soul with myself Polly Lavarello, evergreen marketing expert and cushy business pioneer.

And today we have got a guest on the show Eva.  Eva is a 26 year old brand designer and strategist born raised and based in Porto, Portugal, she helps creative solopreneurs and badass small business owners product or service based own, they’re weird. So they can take up space, stand out online and finally show their business off to the world secure in the knowledge that there’s nobody out there quite like them. And they’ve got the branding to prove it. I’m so excited to have Eva on the show today. Because not only is she phenomenal in her own right, but she and I have also worked together for the last two years or so on my own brand. So I really trust this woman, she walks her talk and she really helped me unlock a whole new layer to my business that wouldn’t be possible without her. So listen in to learn about branding, the common misconceptions around branding, and how you can know when is the right time to invest in branding, and the incredible ripple effect that branding has on your business that I believe the majority of business owners really massively underestimate. This is an amazing conversation listening, you are going to learn so much.

Welcome Eva I am so excited to have you on the podcast, talking about branding, which I believe is just such a kind of, I don’t know misunderstood area. And of course, one of the reasons why I’m so excited to have you on here is because you and I have worked together several times now you’ve really been a huge part of my own brand evolution. So when it came to talking about brand, of course you were the most obvious and amazing person to be speaking to. So I mean, I feel like I could wax lyrical for days about branding. But before we get into that, firstly, let’s just introduction to yourself, please Eva tell us a bit more about yourself?

02:37

Well, I’m already blushing. Thank you so well, as you probably guessed, my name is Eva. I’m a brand designer and strategist from Porto, Portugal. And I always love to ask people if they’ve ever been here, because I feel like a lot of people have been visiting Portugal lately. Anyway, I’m obsessed with transmitting brand personalities and kind of portraying them into the world of brand identity and visuals and graphics, but all very underpinned by a solid strategy that allows your brand and business to grow. So it’s not just aesthetic, for pretty sake has to work and help you achieve your bigger vision.

03:22

Yeah, no 100%. And I think, you know, there can be a challenge on people like yours hands, and that there’s things like Canva, where people go, Oh, I can use pretty fonts, oh, there are these special effects. And there’s a huge lack of understanding as to the power and potency of branding. I mean, I would love for you to share, like, what is the difference? If someone’s thinking, I’ve created a logo on Canva. Thank you very much. I’ve got some nice colours. I’ve got you know, I’ve bought some website template I’m doing just fine. Thank you very much. Why? Why is that not enough?

04:01

I feel like we can often get shiny object syndrome when it comes to graphics and aesthetics, colours and fonts, like you said, because once we log into a certain platform, there’s just so many options that in order to kind of figure out and decide in that particular moment what we’re going to choose, especially when we’re at that stage of just you know, figuring things out for the first time picking fonts, picking colours for the first time. It’s very easy to just go with I like this one and I like this one and try and kind of mishmash everything together. And what I want people to think about once they’re trying to deal with all the different visuals that we create on the daily basis for our brand is really to understand if things are matching together. So are your fonts, saying and conveying the same personality as your colours is your brand as a whole consistent so if I for example, fill out Is your contact form. And then I get an automatic response with an email signature. That’s one graphic. Then I go into your social media and there’s all those content, posts and all of those covers for reals. That’s another graphic. Your website is another graphic. If I were to put things side by side, would I get the same vibe, not just the same look, but the same personality, the same message, like I’m in your world, your ecosystem, and I don’t feel like I’m jumping from different people’s websites and social media, it has to feel like one cohesive thing. Because once we get into someone’s brand world, it just has to be memorable, right? That’s the number one thing that we want for our brands to be is for when someone has a certain problem, our name gets put into that room, or that person remembers our brain. And if we have a bunch of different things going on, nobody’s really going to remember Oh, I remember that person that looks like x y Zed. Because yeah, memorability is very visual, we remember things for how they look first. So even if you go on social media or website, you’re first remembering the visuals and how things look not necessarily the words that are written out. Yeah,

06:21

no, exactly. I mean, I think what’s really powerful here is that visually, things create feelings in us, like a lot of people are quite lazy when it comes to reading words. And a lot of us aren’t amazing wordsmith. So the visuals that we use really carry so much impact. And, you know, I really noticed that in my own brand evolution, when I kind of had a slightly girl next door vibe. And gradually, as I grew in confidence, as a business that’s very much been reflected in my brand, and that it’s become mature. And then when it got to mature, I added in a streak of playfulness. And you know, it’s been a whole evolution, and it does massively impact, the kind of inquiries I get. And, you know, I think what was really interesting from what you just shared is that one of the things they talk about a lot in the marketing world is touch points, and that you need a lot of touch points before someone will choose to buy from you. And you’re totally right, that if those touch points are incongruent, if they’re all telling different stories, creating different feelings, it may as well be several different businesses. And so rather than driving someone towards wanting to work with you, you’re actually diluting the message and the potency. And most importantly, I’d say probably the trust, right, like it’s a trust piece. People want consistency. And obviously, I just asked you the question based around Canva, but would you say there are any other kind of misconceptions around branding? Oh,

07:47

absolutely. I feel like the first one is that branding is just aesthetics, when really, when things aren’t rooted in that strategic thought, and starting with brand foundation. So what are your goals? What’s your mission? What’s your vision? Like? What your Why do you do what you do? and not something else entirely? Like if I were to phrase this for myself, Why am I a designer? Not a florist? Why did I start this particular business? Understanding your audience, because we all know we can’t please everyone. Not everyone even likes pizza. And you know, it’s pizza. So let alone ourselves, and positioning. And that’s probably the hardest thing to figure out almost as hard as when someone asks you, so what is it that you really do? I feel like the second hardest question is, so what why are you different, what makes you different? Answering that for ourselves is so so hard. And once we kind of figured those three things, foundations, audience and positioning, it becomes so much easier to create graphics and visuals and the brand identity, the visual side that conveys all of that in a snap second, because you really want all of that messaging to come across as fast as possible to someone on the other side. So I always like to think of like this Venn diagram, especially when we’re talking about personal brands, a part of building a good brand identity, is you have to be proud of it. Because if you aren’t, and if you don’t like what you see, you’re not going to be as confident showing up online, you’re not going to want to talk about it to special opportunities that come your way. But at the same time, it has to relate to your audience as well. They have to understand what you’re here to do. It can’t just be one sided. It has to be a mega of both. So yeah, there’s a lot of strategy that goes into creating a powerful brand that has an impact on the other side and on your sales as well because to grow our businesses and make money. I feel like that’s the biggest mistake Inception definitely. Yeah.

10:01

And it’s such a powerful investment because I remember when I started out in online business, and I would look at some people who are further along in their journey than me, and they were rebranding for like, I don’t know, the fourth time in a year. And you know, and it was interesting because they’d often kind of decorate it as part of their evolution. And we should all get excited, and we should be on the journey with them. But when I think now, several years down the line about the brands that I trust the most, there has been a huge amount of consistency in their branding. Of course, it may have been tweaked or may have evolved somewhat some bit like the journey that I’ve been on with my branding. But to kind of, you know, like, for me, it’s part of your body of work. And interestingly, I was having a conversation with a client this morning, where she was talking about what kind of experience her clients would be expecting from working with her, and what they should expect inside her courses. And that conversation, even that conversation came back to positioning and brand was like, when you have strong positioning, people will associate you with certain feelings, you can boil it down to one two to three core concepts, which then you distil into everything you do. And I think because a lot of entrepreneurs are perhaps more visual than they are kind of cerebral, when it comes to thinking of these things, I found a lot of things open up for me, once I’d worked on my brand with you, like everything drops in with more ease, because it

11:29

really want to be like the happiest brand designer on Earth. And just as you were saying about, you know, this, the importance of consistency. It’s tricky because we evolve as business owners as people, even in all realms of our life. And as we evolve as we grow, so do our brands. And so do our businesses, and things are bound to change with time, like no brand ever sticks, the exact same as when they started. If they do, it’s a very bad sign. Yeah. But at the same time, it’s like this line that we have to kind of dance and try not to follow, we’re between being this forever work in progress. And having that consistency, there may be a time where something really big has shifted, there was this big pivot, and that happens as well. And that will just be you know, a massive overhaul and rebrand moment, and it makes sense. Yeah, for most people, it’s more about certain tweaks certain refreshes, let’s rethink this bit right here rather than the whole thing.

12:36

Yeah, yeah. No, 100% is having those core threads. I guess, ultimately, it comes back to that feeling piece again, that as long as those images kind of reflect a similar kind of feeling. But yeah, I, I mean, I guess that brings me to another point, because I was going to ask you, and I’m going to come to this question next. Because there’s another question I’m gonna ask you. Well, I’ll add that later. If someone is thinking, Should I do I need a rebrand? Like, what are the kind of core signs that that now is the time to invest in more branding, or either refreshing or renewing it altogether? I

13:10

was thinking about this the other day, because it’s very tough. For me, as someone on the outside, yeah, like, I have a right to tell the other person when they should or shouldn’t rebrand, because ultimately, it’s their rent, it’s their business. I’m an advisor of sorts, a therapist. But I feel like the main thing is when you start to get frustrated by the job title, the thing that you created for yourself, so it’s the brand that has to work for you, and not you that are meant to work for the brand. Makes sense. Things are meant to support your lifestyle, you shouldn’t have to be wasting time doing things that aren’t in your zone of genius, in order for the pipeline to get filled for inquiries to come in your brand should do a bit of the heavy lifting, really building that trust of letting people know what it is that you do, and why do you do it so well. And so if you’re not getting aligned inquiries, if you’re not getting the engagement you want on social media, if things are starting to feel a bit broken a bit off, I feel like that’s a very good first tell. I often find that a lot of my clients come to me with social media related pain points. But the underlying problem is actually the brand because social media is where we exercise that brand voice the most on a daily basis. So that’s where we feel it first. But okay, it starts with social media, but then your website isn’t really converting and the emails that you’re sending, you’re not really getting replies back. So it’s a bigger issue, right? Yeah.

14:58

Think it often is down to people, again, diluting their messaging diluted. And then they feel overwhelmed as to what to share when actually when they’re really clear and what their brand stands for, what problem they solve and who they’re helping, they should never be short of inspiration as to watch create content around. I often joke that I’m such a maverick with my social media, and yet I still manage to attract in so many clients. Some of the reasons why that’s true is because I know who I’m here to help. And I know who I’m helping. And I might vary the kind of themes that I speak to, but it always comes back. Like there’s a core thread in my approach to everything that touches on everything. And that just means that there is the Congressi that people are looking for. And like you said, it’s a lot easier for me to post regularly on social media, because you’ve created some amazing templates for me that make it like a walk in the park to create something that looks really pretty and impactful. And I’m not getting overwhelmed with all the choices. I think another thing that came happened for me in terms of my brand evolution was when I finally had the nerve to do the kind of photoshoot that I’d been scared to do all along, I’d kind of copied everyone else and done a kind of inoffensive me outside some posh looking houses kind of photoshoot which the photo photographers lovely, I’m not knocking her it was and it was all I could do at the time. And it’s what I requested. So it was it was all on me and not on her. She’s an amazing photographer. But I finally felt a bit like this stuff’s all made up. Anyway, all marketing’s made up. So let’s have fun with it. And that’s when I, you know, decided to do the photo shoot. And as I did the photo shoot, I was like, right, the branding needs to come along for the ride. And so that was amazing. It was such a nice way to kind of make a big splash on the internet to kind of share the new images and new videos and photos and the have the kind of elevated kind of bright, funky branding to go alongside that. That felt really exciting. And it did create a renewed energy. And it was a great way to also just make my mark around. I’m here to create a body of work now which up until then I will admit, I think I was very much in the building phase. And when I got to the stage where I was like, right and ready for growth, everything else had to kind of uplevel alongside that and

17:05

that growth and rebranding because of that growth, because it’s no, it’s a growing pain, like we Yeah, to say, can be very daunting and overwhelming and comfortable. Because we’re coming to this point where we’re deciding, everything has been working up until this point, and I’m choosing to step outside of my comfort zone, to do something that I feel like it’s more aligned with myself and my personality. But I’m not entirely sure if it’s going to work. And even admitting the growing pains and where stuff hasn’t really been working as you craved. It’s very hard to come to terms with those things. The whole rebranding process can feel very overwhelming, because the whole strategy phase that we start with, is those hard questions put on paper, what are you here to do? How do you do it differently? Who’s your audience all of those questions that we tend to avoid? On a daily basis, we have to answer and answer them pretty clearly, once we start rebranding, and as you as we’ve been saying, it’s it’s a work in progress, but ultimately, after all of that uncomfortable stage, a good brand, the strong brand badass brand is I like to say, should make the rest of your business day to day life easier. Like you said, social media gets easier. Talking about your business gets easier. Getting on podcast interviews and talking about what you do gets easier. So things will start to, you know, slowly come together. But as with any growth, there’s a stage where we feel a bit wobbly, like oh, I don’t know what I’m doing. And then things starts to calm down. And we find a new routine and the new way of doing things until we have to go through the process all over again. Because we grow.

19:03

Yeah, no. I mean, I think your brand is like the perfect vehicle for the next level that you’re calling in. And I think the best job you can do for yourself, when it comes to hiring somebody to work on your brand like yourself, is to be as honest with yourself as you can be about what you’re calling in. And to not necessarily speak to what you know you have right now and what you’re experiencing right now, but to take a moment to really reflect on and what is the most elevated version of yourself calling in what does the most elevated version of yourself stand for? And I think that’s one of the challenges because you know, as a personal brand, there’s a human behind it. And for a lot of us there various layers to shed to get to the stage where we can be our most fully expressed version of ourselves. And I guess that’s why alongside that our brands tend to evolve as we kind of gradually become more of a kick ass business owner and not one who’s been speaking of that one of the things we discussed before booking This podcast was the fee aim of beige, beige and branding, which I feel relates to all of this when we talk about. It’s not just what we’re doing on the outside, there’s an element of who we’re being on the inside that impacts the choices we make. And I suspect the reasons why we see so much beige has to do with that. But I’d love to hear your hot take on it. Before we get into that. I

20:20

feel like this is the rant that I could go on for hours, if anyone would let me. But as you were saying, just as there’s certain answers that we want to give, because we feel like they are the right answers, and not necessarily what we actually want. The same goes for the visual side. So if I back it up a bit, for the creatives out there for designers like me, for example, one of the things that we’re told is that to be successful, we have to grow this agency model and hire a team and have a team of I don’t know, 20 people, and suddenly, you’re not a designer anymore, you’re managing your team. And that, to me has always sounded like my version of a horror movie. The last thing that I want is to simultaneously stop designing and start managing people like that isn’t just not my zone of genius, I like to design I like colour. That’s why I got into what I got into. And at the same time, if we take it to the aesthetics side of things, the right answer seems to be use neutrals, use black and white, brown beige, in your branding, because that’s the easiest way to appear professional and like you know what you’re doing and serious from the outside. I’m not saying that beige is never the right choice. There are some brands out there with a with a minimalist look and feel, do it great. And that’s that fits them. That’s awesome. What I’m saying though, is that the beige isn’t a one size fits all, because there aren’t one size fits all in branding that just doesn’t exist. And there’s this kind of false promise that once you adopt that minimalist style that black and white sans serif, very clean, very minimal style, you’ll see success in a snap, you’ll start to get all the money and all the inquiries, and it just doesn’t work that way. Me. One kind of thread that opened my eyes a lot was once I started asking people around me who own brands and businesses who are self employed, what their favourite colour is. And statistically, they would most likely answer stuff like blue, green, red, purple, so on and so on. And then I would ask them, okay, now look at your brand. Home wardrobe. What do you see? Beige, grey, white, black. But why? Because I’m talking to you. And while you’re talking to me, your voice your personality is colourful, in the sense that I’m getting all of these feelings, all of these different nuances and jokes, and humour and quirks and personality traits. So why are you trying to literally blend in, it creates this dissonance. And when people eventually work with you one on one, it starts to create those funny little comments on video calls, like, Ah, you’re so different in person than you are on social media. And that’s the last thing that you want your brand to be doing. You want this kind of seamless continuum, between all the touch points, like we were talking before, and speaking one to one is a touch point. Yeah, for me, I feel like colour comes into play as again, a very quick, not easy, because dealing with colour isn’t easy. But as a very quick way to not just become a memorable brand, something that becomes top of mind. Like, oh, I know that person because she uses yellow. And I just get that vision of yellow in my head once I remember that person. But also facilitate conveying those personality traits, it kind of becomes a part of your identity. Besides the brand identity,

24:22

I almost want to tell you to stop because I don’t want everyone knowing this. Ever since I became the girl with the towel, and I had, I have so many more followers, so many people who kind of, I mean, I’m making sales with so much more ease since I became bolder with my imagery and with my colours. And what’s really funny is I remember when you and I worked together the first time and I was trying to go more sensible route and we’re using the greens and the golds. And and I remember when we chose like when I chose the words that represented my brand I remember I think you suggested the word playful and I was like no no, because I didn’t I was like even though I am playful and anyone who knew me Getting yourself was like we were playing for Bali. And I was like, no, no, no, no, I’m trying to show a mature, sensible grown up, you know, I kinda was trying to hide that side of me. And it’s so refreshing kind of to kind of shift from the opposite side, to really have colours that genuinely reflect like, you know, people reflect to me that because I’m very data driven, but also creative. It’s almost like the masculine and the feminine. And that kind of comes across my brand. And that is kind of green, but then it’s pink and, and it’s just so joyous. And it is cheeky, and it’s playful. But it’s also kind of sophisticated as well, like, there’s all sorts of things going on. And that’s kind of who I am. And I think that’s one of the beautiful things about working with someone like like ever, who does, like in depth work to understand, you know, when I did brand work before with someone prior to ever, we didn’t do this level of kind of digging to understand the brand personality, which just meant the results on the other side were just so much more potent. And why I come back to time and time again, whenever I need that next level of like, how do we upgrade my reels, covers, or whatever it is. So I really, really hear you on that. And I’m really interested to see as well because I’ve noticed as a trend in the world right now. Minimalism seems to be going out and maximalism is coming in. So I’m really hopeful that that, to me, like spread across into how people choose to kind of use their brands moving forward. But definitely if you’re listening to this, and you have a brand and it is in the minimalist category and beige, and bland, gotta be honest here. Then, you know, it really is one of the easiest hacks you know, what is important in online business visibility, what’s the best way to increase visibility and beyond that create the impact that were memorable colour 100% So yeah, I love this conversation with you. And I also just feel like beyond how important it is for us, you know, as a brand. You know, I myself, I’m doing more to wear more colourful things wear more colourful, bright lipsticks, because there was definitely a time in my life when I became a mom where I was like hiding back and just hiding under black jumpers and beige and trying to be inoffensive, and there is definitely a real piece around our own identity. And when we start to fully express ourselves and be bold, and be colourful and be playful, and so not just bring that to our brand, but bring that to how we show up in our day to day lives. It does unlock a whole unleashed scary version. Oh, yeah. potent, I would say, well, it brings

27:23

100%. And I feel like it’s so normal to have that first reaction that you’re talking about when someone kind of suggests, you know, what if we introduce some playfulness and some fun into the brand, that first reaction is so normal, like no, I want to appear professional and serious. Because throughout our lives, we’ve been told, amongst other things, society has a very funny way of kind of ingraining these thoughts into our brains. But amongst other things, we’ve been told, for all our lives, two things that are the kind of the opposite of what we should be doing and the online business world, stepping out is bad because at least for me, as a child, if I stood out, it was a bad thing. Like you want to blend and tag along and go with the crowd. And as an adult, we learned that colour is childish, you know, colour Mikoshi always, colour is for children’s items, not for adults who own their own businesses who own their own homes who have a family, that’s just not for you, it kind of gets thrown out the door. And honestly, we as people, and we are running personal brands, we’re the face of the brand. We’re not one dimensional, we’re not one colour. So why are we throwing like rainbow of opportunities and possibilities out the door without even trying first. It’s for people to kind of try and look at colour in a different way as a way to convey the message that it’s already in them. Really?

29:00

Yeah, yeah. 100%. Ultimately, if you want to get the most bang for your buck with your brand, embrace colour. I’ll say that, as someone who’s been there, done that I’ve never been entirely beige. But I’ve certainly been more sensible. And you know, embracing the kind of Elta. Again, it’s that whole thing of what are the most trustworthy brands, the ones that are most fully expressed and authentic. Where there is that congruency like you say not just from when they’ve landed on your website, but when they see a video of you, everything matches up, ya know, and, and ultimately, if you kind of think, Oh, but I want to beige brand, because I’m not a very bold or confident person. Maybe having a bolder brand will be the thing that enables and supports you to be that bolder person when you’re being visible because again, ultimately, it will support you. I know not everyone’s going to agree with that. But I supported a lot of people who wanted to be very quiet and very shy and they have not been the ones who’ve succeeded as much as those who’ve kind of pushed through the discomfort of being bold and being visible and ultimately I’ve seen many rewards for that. Oh my gosh, ever, what an amazing conversation. I really, really hope anybody listening if they have had any kind of concerns or misconceptions around branding, I hope this has really opened their eyes to just what it makes possible for them and whether you know, it’s now’s a good time for them to be thinking about it. And certainly, I mean, if someone’s listening to this and thinking, I would love to pick his brains, or I’d love for her to design my brand and become as cool as Polly. That’s not gonna happen, by the way people. Then what they need to do,

30:36

so you just need to either DM me on Instagram, if you’re unsure of where the right route for you would be. If it’s just a matter of figuring out strategy or you’re ready to dive into the whole rebrand overhaul, we can chat No Strings Attached first. Or if you’re ready, no, no, I need to rebrand because what I have is a mess. And you can just go to my website, fill out my contact form. And we’ll go from there.

31:03

Amazing. Is there anything you feel they should reflect on that would help them kind of make the most of that?

31:09

Yeah, I feel like if you are literally on the first year of business, you probably aren’t ready for a rebrand because you haven’t grown your brand enough to even be able to answer the questions of who your audience is. But that’s just the basics. If you know that you’re ready for a rebrand, you’re probably between you know, two to five years or more into business without refreshing your visuals and your brand strategy. I would just urge you to reflect on where do you go against the grain in your own industry? Because we all have beefs with other people in our own industry. And it’s a lot easier to answer this question this way. Then if I were to ask you, what do you do differently? Yeah.

31:54

I love that. I love that amazing. Well, thank you so much Eva for your time and your expertise and your beautiful knowledge. I can’t wait for everyone to hear this. Next week, I will be sharing the truth on why passive income doesn’t really exist. Well, slight disclaimer, it doesn’t entirely however, it’s a really important conversation to be having, particularly this time of year. If you are craving some flexibility to enjoy the summer months ahead, whether it’s to be able to be caring for your children, or because you are lucky enough to be spending a lot of it hanging out around the pool. There is such a thing as leverageable income and certainly ways to make money in less hours. And I’m going to be covering that because I myself will be spending three weeks in Sri Lanka this summer, and I’m expecting to have one of my most successful months in business like I did two years ago, when I spent three weeks in Greece. I will be sharing more behind the scenes so you can learn what lessons you can take from that and how you can implement it in your own business to have the most cushy summer you’ve had. I’ll be in euros then