00:00

Welcome to Make More Money Without Selling Your Soul. The podcast for bold entrepreneurs ready to simplify scale and reclaim their time. I’m Polly Lavarello, Evergreen scaling strategist and cushy business pioneer. Join me and my occasional guests as we explore the themes of wealth, selling and well-being, because building a business that works for you changes everything. Let’s dive in.

00:37

Hello and welcome back to make more money without selling your soul, if you’ve been feeling like marketing in 2026 is loud, chaotic and increasingly “same, same”, you’re not imagining it. Between algorithm panic, rage based content and AI generated word salads, it’s never been more important to build a personal brand with a real point of view, the kind that makes people feel something and helps the right clients find you. Today, I’m really excited to be sitting down with my client and someone I massively respect, Tania Chakraborti, founder of brave bird and the anti shortcut marketer, Tania is obsessed with story, not as fluff, but as a strategic asset that creates clarity, focus and commercial traction. In this chat, we’re going to explore what a personal brand actually is and isn’t, where people waste energy chasing quick wins and how to build a body of work that actually holds you steady, even on the days when you don’t want to show up. Let’s dive in. Welcome Tania to the show. Oh my goodness, I always love not only having someone I enormously respect on the show, but also a client too. But without further ado, Tania, would you be happy to introduce yourselves to my lovely to my lovely listeners?

01:56

Of course. Firstly, I’m so delighted to be here, I can’t wait to chat. Secondly, introducing myself. So my name is Tania Chakraborti, and I’m a founder at Brave bird niche positioning and messaging strategists, or really brave service providers who are kind of done chasing trends and ready to step up into category leadership with a message that they can stand behind ideas that feel authentic to them and ultimately in a way that turns their story into commercial traction. I’m also the self serve anti shortcut marketer, because I do believe this work is deeply strategic, not just from understanding your buyers and being obsessive about them, but also understanding yourself. And to do that one big step back before you can take a million leaps forward. So that’s my work, and why I’m passionate about it. I really love helping founders build that body of work, rather than just putting themselves out there, doing it with intention.

02:46

Oh my goodness, I just love everything you just said. Then we definitely need to dig in later, into what those trends are that people are chasing and what those shortcuts are. Because I think one of the biggest challenges in this space is a lot of people don’t even know what they don’t know, and can be falling for these things. So we definitely want to explore that later. But before we get to that, I always love to have a little knowledge around what got you into this in the first place, what made you the brave bird that you are today? It’s such an interesting question.

03:15

Because you know what, if you ask me to do it with my clients, instantly, I know it, but I think this is the problem a lot of space. How do you talk about yourself? And so for me, it’s, it’s been a duck and a weed to even understand that. And I think if you’d asked me this question a year ago as to why I started brave bird, it was actually very different to why I’m still in the game now. So when I first had the inkling to be a founder, you know, I’d spent my career in media and journalism, like interviewing people, understanding, being obsessive about the story, and then I turned that into value my own music magazine, and I continued to deepen that relationship. And then I found myself in the scale up world for some reason, and suddenly I was running marketing teams and content teams, and I sort of started to see that a good story can really, really even in scale up land lead to commercial traction, like almost every single time when you connect with your mission and your vision and then do that deep work with your audience. Amazing things can happen. But I found myself in 2022 in what I think a lot of people probably listening will have faced themselves too, which is burnout. And I think the symptom of that was I was on the way to meet my CEO for a meeting before the meeting, like, you know, those ones, and I got stuck at the train station, just in my head whirring and wearing, and I was rushing, and then I missed my footing between the platform and the train, and just found myself falling through. And what led to that was, yeah, a near death experience, but also, like injuries that lasted such a long time, bed bound and house bound for months, and for the first time in my life, I was like, What am I doing? Am I I felt like I was losing some of that early energy of creativity that probably that story I was too busy in burnout land. The germination of an idea of business came then, but now, when I’m helping founders connect with their story and like what their truth is, I’m recognizing more that it’s also my business and building it, and why I love doing it for my clients, helping connect with their story, is that really at that. And a lot of why I come to this place was I came from from an immigrant family, there’s always been this hard work ethic, but also a path laid out for you. Yeah. And increasingly, my business has been a form of healing, of self expression, of recognizing that you can own all parts of experience. I talk about all my experiences there, but like, how do you own all of that in a way that’s actually to people? So my work lives at that intersection. I think it’s brave to ask yourself those tough questions. Hence, brave bird, but also that’s the big thesis of my work, and why I do what I do.

05:29

Oh, my goodness, Tania, I’m feeling such big feelings, almost feeling actually tears my what you just said, because it is so true for anyone who’s been in any situation. So your situation, my goodness, of physical healing, and it helping you kind of draw attention to where you’re giving your other energy. Similarly, my crossroads when I went through a divorce and was a single parent alone and also had burnouts, what you just shared about it being this kind of healing journey, it’s so so true. Your story is baked in so much kind of truth and resonance, I imagine, for many, and it is really brave. And I remember before you and I first spoke about working together, I had a look at your homepage. I had a look, and the way the words flow out of you is just something to marvel. I remember you kind of saying to me, you know, do you think a group program will work? And I was like, yes, you literally have, like, the strongest personal brand. How do you feel? I mean, how have you like, what are the kind of ingredients to having that strong personal brand? Do you feel?

06:35

Oh, good question. You always good questions. I think first thing is, like, it’s the boring stuff, you know, to understand yourself, you first have to delve in to your identity and to your experience with your clients. So I mean the fundamentals, like understanding your niche, like ruthlessly, who are you here for your audience, your positioning of your offers and of you know also how you’re different in the market, your true blue ocean and understanding what really makes you different, and then messaging that is a whole game of understanding your point of view, like, what do you believe in? What do you stand for? All of these things together are a juicy way of first articulating your personal brand. And I think personal branding has become increasingly about visibility and just being active and being sharing your thoughts, and that is part of it. And I applaud anyone who has the strength to be visible, because it takes a lot of guts and confidence, but then that next level is just okay. I’ve been in the game a while. Now I need to find the threads and so a good personal brand. I often when I work with clients, first thing I do is audit that and go like, are you communicating these fundamentals? Because once you are then you can get exciting, and you can start to play, and you can start creative. But it’s really hard to do that, fun bowls, creative stuff, if the fundamentals, even if you’re really experienced, and actually really the more experienced you are, the more versions of yourself, the more of your legacy, you have to sort of rewire and understand to get to your next level. So for a good personal brand, to me, communicates all those things, but the best, I think, are the ones that have a point of view to stand behind, and they are ruthlessly committed to focusing in on that, because that’s how people identify and how you get known.

08:12

Yeah, so where do you feel? Because I was listening to everything you’re saying, and there’s so many components to a personal brand that I know it’s what it’s your bread and butter, it’s what you do every day. But I know for a lot of people, I’ve worked with all of those different things all tied up together, can feel quite overwhelming, and like you say, it can be quite confronting, almost the more established you are figuring out, like, Well, who am I? Am I the mother? Am I the immigrant child? Am I the am I the, you know, whatever kind of like backstory you have, obviously, those aren’t my stories. But I’m just pulling out a threads that I know people have used in the past. You know, is it my sexuality? Is it my neuro diversity? Is it the unique people I’ve supported so far? Is it my like? There’s so many different directions that one can head in and one can focus on, and obviously one of the reasons why so many of us get into business in the first place is that entrepreneurial spirit, that multi talented, like energy that we can have around things, and that can also be what I can consider to be almost our worst enemy, because we feel like we can do everything. We want to do everything, but in trying to do everything, we can also create a very diluted, I was about to say a diluted personal brand, but really there is no personal brand if it’s entirely diluted. So you’ve talked about the ingredients. But where do you see people, kind of commonly, I don’t know, making mistakes around how they engineer their personal brand. Don’t like to use web mistakes, but anyway, where do they I was gonna think about, like, cracks in the road. Like, where are things falling through for them? That is a missed opportunity.

09:50

I think it’s not the fall of anyone. It’s just how the market is, like loud, like certain messages are resonating. Like people say a lot you are the niche is a big one. Like. I don’t want to be boxed in, but increasingly, to have commercial success in your business, you do have to focus and be ruthless in that, which is what I kind of follow the Socratic method when I work class, I’m like, I asked so many questions because, like you said, you have so much lived experience and so much career capital and so much brand equity you have built that seeing the through line of what has actually worked and felt alignment with you. And there will be times you’ll have to sacrifice certain things to allow one message to come through, and that is the thing that people find very difficult to do. But increasingly, it’s so important. When you think about every brand you ever loved, they’re known for something very specific. It doesn’t mean you can’t bring all these other things into your work. It just means you need to understand the through line. So the first thing I’d say is, like that there is a through line. I can give you a really good example, and it’s not me. It’s one. It’s not me, it’s one of my clients. She’s an incredible, incredible sales coach. Has been in sales 20 plus years, but she’s also a public speaking coach, and so she was getting known very, very well for being a public speaking coach to sell out events. And actually she was like, but my sales experience is here, and actually what I’m doing is helping people sell from the stage, and then suddenly, you know, the click is there. You’re the stage to sales strategist, and her background and love of horses sounds ridiculous to be even talking about this, but she’s an equestrian since she was 12 years old. Like you’re not gonna start talking about your horses and everything you do, but she has a language of energetics that she’s able to read creatures and work with horses in a really, like, intimate way, and it’s helped her help her clients read the room, and so you’re able to layer that into your messaging. That’s the play I’m talking about. But I think the thing that people make is just thinking that all these things can be talked about at the same hierarchy, but there is an order for which you will prioritize your messaging and what stage like she can bring that language of energetics into how she talks about her offer at the more of the consideration stage of her buyer journey, whereas talking about being a stage to sales strategist is her position that she loudly talks about in the market, in her content, there is an ordered hierarchy for everything. I think the mistake people make the most is assuming that everything has equal weight. You all elements of yourself fully, but still be strategic and how you come to the table. It doesn’t make you dirty, it doesn’t make you know, it’s just what we need to do to make commercial success of your story lived experience. Yeah, that isn’t you’re running businesses as well. No.

12:12

I mean, that makes so much sense to me, because, again, I think some people just aren’t aware of how marketing works. So I’ve heard people say, I’m not a niche. I stand for XYZ. And I’m like, actually, there is a very clear thread that runs through XYZ. And so in many ways, that is its own niche. But what you talked about earlier around self awareness and identity is such a strong piece, and often we’re just too close to ourselves to understand, what are the things that stand out, that draw, you know, what makes us a beacon to others and draws people to want to work with us. So I know I said to you, we’d come back to the kind of quick wins, or kind of shiny objects or things that people chase instead of building a body of work. Can you like share more on that, in terms of where do you see people putting because, I mean, energy is everything, right? Our time is everything. When you’re a personal brand, it’s either you or you and a very small team. And really, that small team is still massively dependent on you, like you are the center of that universe. And so if we are putting our energy into things that won’t serve us or our business, ultimately, that is probably the main reason why a lot of businesses go bust, because they just don’t know where to put their energy. And yes, we do. I mean, I’ve definitely observed we live in this day and age of, like, I call it the Amazon Prime generation. I mean, I didn’t, but that’s, you know, that’s how I kind of summarize this sense of, I do this today, so I get this tomorrow, and that’s just not how business works. If you pick up any book from the 80s, no book was ever saying like, go knock on someone’s door, make a sale tomorrow. Like it was very much about the long game. But somewhere in the age of the internet and post covid, there’s become this whole illusion that we the thing we do today, can also be the thing that brings our results today. So tell me a bit more about what those quick wins are and why they’re dangerous, and what it actually looks like to build a business that is a body of work when it comes to marketing and a personal brand. Yeah.

14:16

I mean, the biggest one that I just talk about death, because it’s so important, is being a guru and not a guide. And it’s a fundamental you could be a beginner in business or be in 10 years. And it’s the principle remains the same. There’s a lot of and because, you know what loud and flashy is what’s winning, like rage baiting is what’s winning on the algorithm, like, naturally, people are going to be like calling people in with messaging that makes them feel rubbish about themselves. And a lot of that is due to this guru messaging. And what guru messaging is is essentially saying that you are the transformation, that you’re modeling that success to your clients. And why that is a pressure trap is because it relies on you to be the model for everything. So if you’re making money amazing, if you’re not, then you feel misalignment, and there’s a burn out there. And. Weirdly, a lot of clients have come down that route to me, of have been the guru and feeling very exhausted, and it’s just a quick tweak of centering your clients experience, of making them the hero in the journey. And that way, you know you don’t have to model success every day. You do have to model your values, but you don’t have to model the process or the like, the way in which you know that for your method you’re mapping and how you’re talking about that, that process. So I think that’s the biggest one right now. And I think the reason for that is because, unfortunately, rage baiting is just such an important like algorithm driver. You know, it looks like it’s doing really well. The engagement is there, but that’s not the metric we’re looking for. We’re looking for longevity. So that’s the difference. If you’re building a body of work, you’re centering your clients experience again and again and again and again. It doesn’t mean you can’t talk about yourself or what you know, the journey you’ve been on. It’s just about understanding that that’s not going to be the only route to connecting with your buyers. And it’s not. It shouldn’t be. You should always be centering your customer as the hero. It’s their transformation while centering and you know, it’s much more powerful to me, like the person that the reason why I went with you, Polly, is my business coach, is because there’s so many testimonials. Of these are people I have supported and helped, and everybody’s business journey is different, and I support that in the way that I work with my clients, my deliverables, my methods don’t change, but or they are. You know, they’re there, they’re set, and you can read about them and understand them, but the value is shifted, because I’ve worked with loads of different people in different ways, so that’s the one, I think, is the biggest one. It’s the biggest trap right now. And like I said, like shouting, just a lot of shouting about how bad your audience is, and you’re doing everything wrong, but you don’t know their lived experience. You don’t know what they’ve they’ve undergone, what challenges took them to where they are to start the business in the first place. And I think increasingly that nuance is being lost. Why I love building a body of work is like, you know, this is the thing that you should center in, is it’s a long game. You’re saying to yourself, you’re committing to yourself, that you’re going to be in the game for more than 510, years. You want to be in it for a long time. And the clients who I work with understand that they’ve done the fast hack, and they’re like, it didn’t sell me for a quick launch, or for, you know, where I was in, that place, place that it burnt me out because I felt misaligned. I wasn’t being myself. I was being somebody else in how I showed up for myself. And that can be really costly, not just your business, but for your brain. You know, yeah,

17:16

and I’d like to chip in from like a group program perspective, that it just never pays to bring in people who are coming to you from a place of lack or desperation or anger, because, guess what, they’re going to bring that same energy into your program. And when things don’t work, immediately, that anger, that attract, it’s so you know, when we speak to that person who’s ready, who’s seeking transformation, and also kind of this has enough discernment to not assume that they’re going to get it because you have it, but they’re going to get it because you have the skills, the knowledge, the insight, the experience is so, so important. So I, you know, this is one of the reasons why I was so excited to have you on the podcast, because I think you and I have, we’re so aligned in our views when it comes to all of this, you know, vanity metrics. I mean, that’s another big thing, right? This year, I’m seeing a lot of people saying the algorithms broken, so you now need to go back to posting five times a day, and it’s all about volume and it’s all about trial reels. And I think I’m curious to know what you think. But from my perspective, you know, I’ve got two children. I’ve got limited time and limited energy. As a neurodiverse person, I can definitely, you know, I’ve had chronic fatigue in the past, so I have to be really mindful as to where I put my energy, and the idea of creating five trials a day just no thank you, and I do appreciate it. Can work for people like I don’t think any of these things don’t have to, but I think it’s so important, when we see strategies out there like that being promoted, that we’re also aware that there is another way, there is a way that requires less hustle, that that really creates longevity. And now, like, six years into running my business, I’ve always approached my marketing as a body of work, and you really see the payoff each year on year, for really making your mark in a certain area, being repetitive and speaking about the same things. So yeah, are there any other kind of things you see being touted at the moment for kind of quick wins that you would warn people against? Yeah?

19:14

Well, you just said they’re really resonated because you said that people are busy. They have tea, even if you have teams, right? Yeah, you still have to be the translator for everything. Yeah. So I think the challenge is saying, just post five times a day and all that sorts of leaders mentioning the consistency piece is, if you’re consistently putting out messaging that you don’t under, like you can’t see the through line, you’re not articulating your value clearly enough, you will just burn out, because it takes hours to create content. It takes hours the mental prep before a sales call. All of these things we don’t recognize are part of this bigger piece of the messaging, piece of the through line, across not just your content and how you show up, but if you go to an event and like, the mental strain of being like, how do I talk about myself? So I’m talking about things that I’ve also seen touted separately to that it’s also just. Like the biggest one I mentioned earlier, it was like saying that you know you, you are the niche, and you can come to the table with every facet of yourself, because ultimately it makes your content diluted, so that people can’t do a through line. And I just think if you are in that stage of feeling really, really burnt out by showing up by all of the negative messaging, then the only answer, really is focus. And if you can focus in, then that consistency piece also gets easier. It becomes easier to pass off your content to your team or to external people. It becomes easier to sit there while the noise says post a million times a day, or why you’re more active. To know, well, I know that everything I’m putting out is in alignment with the audience I want to call in so I can ignore that noise. So I think just being true to that and that strategy means on the bad days. I don’t think I ever told you this before, Chloe, but I have really, really, really bad chronic OCD, and if I sat there all day thinking about what to post, and didn’t, you know, allow that strategy to hold me, I don’t know where I’d be. I’d never post anything. I’d never be visible. Yeah, I’m not sure I’ve even answered your question, but it’s just got me thinking very passionately about what focus and alignment in your strategy actually means. And it when the thing, everything gets louder and louder. Ah, one thing I will say, ai, ai, is massively coming into the space so everything becomes more and more generic, which is, AI is amazing, like, I think it’s an incredible tool. But if you don’t know yourself, you don’t know you know what you stand for, what ideas you rally or you want your ideas, your audience to rally behind, ultimately you just end up sounding like everyone else. You see someone else’s post and it becomes shiny like, well, I just put that into chatgpt and just see what like, what my version of that could be. And then suddenly you find yourself using borrowed language and sounding less and less like yourself. And as I said earlier, your misalignment costs

21:44

you, oh, my god, 100% funnily enough, I just recorded a podcast episode on how I use AI and the pitfalls of AI and what you just shared. Interestingly, I was talking to another marketer recently, and she made the really valid point of the fact that when AI first came about, it was kind of modeled on, you know, AI, like Jasper, which I was an early adopter of. I think anyone who wrote ads, you know, use things like Jasper, it was great for, like, giving you formulas and structures. But everyone who was using that, that early AI, the early adopters, were the best marketers, you know, who obviously looking for and so what you found with AI, what AI created for you, the patterns it identified were based on some of the very best marketers and their work. Now, because so many people are using it, we’re just getting word salads that don’t really mean anything. And like you say, it’s so immediately comparable. It’s so immediately vanilla. And one of the things you referenced earlier is one of the biggest risks with AI, which is, it’s very pain point LED. It’s very, you know, and particularly within the UK market, where people are particularly sensitive to that. Like, I think I definitely see a big difference in the US funnels compared to UK funnels. Like, that’s nothing to do with like, I don’t know much about the culture and us is huge, right? But I do know for a fact, when I look at marketing in the US compared to marketing in the UK, there’s a cultural sensitivity in the UK that is different. So, but because obviously AI is international, we’re getting that kind of very direct, very pain point led marketing, infiltrating our marketing. And it just, yeah, I think the work you do Tania has never been more needed, because, like you say, if you’re just going out there and just sharing from our multi dimensional, complex human selves, which you know, particularly if you’re a woman as well, and you’re cyclical too, like who I am on day one of my cycle versus day 28 is so different, and that’s where batching for me for content has been a game changer. Because I’m like, Oh, I can actually, I look at the stuff on day 28 and I’m like, Oh, thank God, I wrote that today. I am in a totally different space, you know, when on day 28 I just want to hermit and hide away, or day one, I’m like, you know, or bells and anyway, but yeah, so what you’re saying about AI, it’s such a risk, and one of the best ways to get past that, you know? And I don’t think AI is very good at eliciting this either because what you said right the beginning of this conversation, which I still feel is like the thing that dropped for me most profoundly, is that identity piece is that self awareness piece is that piece of kind of connecting to the raw parts of us, the vulnerable parts of us, the things that made us who we are, and how those core threads all interweave like I’m trying to remember I read this book. I think it’s by will giardi Or good do you know that’s got unreasonable hospitality, or something like that, or we’re always getting names wrong, but it’s to do with hospitality. And the whole book is all about his experience in hospitality. But actually, all the lessons you gain from reading it are about being you know, how to be a good service provider, how to deliver over and above. I mean, actually, it applies to any kind of business, really. So it’s a business book, but all through stories told around hospitality, and when you mentioned your client who combines equestrian knowledge with sales knowledge with stage knowledge, it’s kind of, you know, similarly looking at I mean, one of the things that made that book probably one of the best books. I read that year, which you wouldn’t know of me not remembering its name, was because like no one else could share that story, no one else had his unique experience, no one else could convey messages I’d heard shared in other ways, but they landed so much better through the beauty of storytelling. And I feel like that really is representative of what a good personal brand is like, we become that story. Oh, my God, there’s so many things I could talk about with you, because also what you shared about, oh, what you talked about with OCD and sharing on social media. The other thing that came to my mind was the fact that when you lead with it being about you, when you lead with it needing to be about people need to understand you, or people need to see all of you, or people need to like you, or like what you’re doing or buy from you, then the energy feels so heavy. So what you’ve been talking about here with energetics, like I so anytime any clients come to me and said to me that they’re feeling heaviness around posting, the first thing I always suggest is what you just beautifully kind of touched on, which is, it’s not about you. Like, think about the person you’re writing this for, and also understand the role of the content. Because sometimes people say to me, when I do a promotional post, it doesn’t get as much reach. I’m like, no shit Sherlock, because not everyone, not as many people, are going to be as interested in you promoting, but the few who are need to know what it is that you’re selling. So let’s touch on that for a moment, actually. So how does personal brand connect to sales? I saw an amazing reel you did recently about how it elevates everything you do, and I’d love for you to share more about that now.

26:35

Well, I think one thing to say, just a misconception, is that if you magically change your personal brand, you’ll make sales like instantly. It is a longevity piece. But I think the quickest lever that you can put is understanding where you’re at and the maturity of your business to understand, you know what, what tweaks you need to make to make your personal brand do the heavy lifting to make sales obviously feel easier, feel more, more in alignment. So if you’re at the phase in your business, I kind of call it like the loud but loose phase, where you’re really, really visible, and you’re posting a lot, and you’re on breads and you’re on LinkedIn, you’re on Instagram, you’re everywhere, by all intents and purposes, but you feel in your gut and misalignment, because you know that you’re not really communicating the value of your offers or what you do, and you’re not seeing sales immediately. You’re not seeing book discovery calls or those kind of obvious levers for sales, then the first thing to do is like what I said this whole podcast, right? Understand your niche position and messaging. Go back to your offers. Are you talking about it enough? Are you communicating the process involved the transformation you deliver case studies. These are important bottom of funnel. You know, levers you can pull already, but you start focusing in and stop being hyper visible, and instead understand how to focus in your message. But if you’re more like in this translator phase you mentioned, where you know you actually do understand your value. You actually are pretty consolidated with your offers. You actually do understand the transformations you deliver really well, and can articulate it, but it all lives in your head like there’s a mental load there you’re prepping for every sales call, like an hour beforehand, you have to create new assets from scratch. Content takes ages. You’re in that translator phase, and you need to start codifying all of these points onto paper and start leading with that in your content. And you know that’s a super important part of that, because if people can understand your value more instantly, then that mental load is costing you sales, because all that time you’re spending trying to translate that stuff could be out there doing that heavy lifting for you that increasingly Instagram is more of a portfolio like piece. I think even you mentioned that recently, Polly to me, maybe that’s where I got it from. But Instagram is that portfolio piece if we’re looking to credential you so they can’t find all those different elements of either posts about your offer or the problem you solve, all these different elements, they’re not going to be able to put those threads together. And sales calls will feel heavier. You will feel annoyed coming out of that, thinking, why do people want to understand my value? And then the final bit, which is, if you’re at the what I call the brand threshold, which is essentially, right, you you’re pretty well booked, you’re super respected, you have a full calendar, and it’s not necessarily because you feel burnt out and you’re selling too much. You feel good about where your business is at, but you’re ready now to go, right? I need to now codify this into it, what I call a thesis of you, which is essentially, now I’m going to get known for this particular belief. I’m going to go and I’m going to tell the world about that, and I’m going to get known for that. I’m ready to step into this higher level of visibility. And this is the most interesting client to work with as well, because I think a lot of your listeners will be probably in that phase of like, I actually am doing pretty good, but I need to understand how to turn that visibility into, like clockwork, traction, and you’re having a through line with your messaging that feels more like, you know, a tap that you can pull. And people find it harder to see themselves in that phase, like, at least for the clients I work with, because they’re kind of doing good already. So that really is more of an identity shift, a belief shift, of being like I’m ready for like more. So whatever stage of your personal brand development you are in those levers you have to. Call for commerciality will be different. But I think the main thing is, if you know that you’re making it’s difficult to make sales. You know you can’t close on a call. You talk about this a lot, Polly like it probably is something to do with how you’re communicating. And the very least, you need to take a step back to see, am I communicating the value of not just myself, but is my offer? Clear? Is the way it’s positioned in the market, clear, and is it immediately clear that what transformation they will get once they work with me? And if you can at least answer those questions more in your content or more in your approach, you’re more likely to see that move towards commercial viability and more success in more

30:36

sales, 100% Yeah, it’s really nice to be at a phase in business where you’re not really explaining anything on a sales call anymore. It’s more of a logistic. When do we get started? And a personal brand really, really allows for that. And I also think a personal brand in 2026 is a non negotiable. I mean, I’ve been a huge advocate. I mean, you can see from anyone who’s looked at my brand and my very OTT photo shoot will know that I’m massively into branding, so I’ve never need needed convincing of that, but I do think in this era we’re in right now with AI, it’s more needed than ever, because the brands that stand out are the ones that can go above and beyond what AI is capable of, and AI does have its limits. And so understanding, I think one of the things that’s so important about having this conversation with you, Tania, which I feel really passionately about, is that you mustn’t outsource your marketing knowledge to AI, because it is flawed. Because you’ll know this, and I know this as marketers, when we use AI, we can immediately identify, oh, it’s gone back into pain points, or oh, it’s lost the thread, and it’s gone on to something else entirely, like I use AI, but I’m very aware. I can identify immediately where it’s starting to break, or it’s starting to forget, or where actually, you know, it’s given me the basis. Now I’m going to do it my own way, type thing, but I think one of the genuine risks I see in a lot of online business owners is if they aren’t able to identify those patterns, if they aren’t able to identify why it’s doing what it’s doing and whether it’s doing it, well, you can end up just sounding like everyone else. And you know, people sometimes think it’s as simple as going to chat GPT and saying, I like cats. I’m over 50, I help people with menopause, oh, and I make dad jokes. And no personal brand is so much more than that, and it gets to have a ripple effect that extends well beyond that baseline knowledge. But that’s the kind of thing AI might ask you for be like, What do you hate? Oh, you hate people working too hard. Tick, what do you want more of? Oh, you want people to feel happier. Okay, I’m Tania who doesn’t want people to work too hard and feel happier. Boom, there’s your and it’s like, that’s comparable. That’s the kind of stuff I see AI generating, even from the more sophisticated chat gpts out there. I mean, it’s why I’ve wired my own one to ask loads of questions and ask for specificity to try and avoid those pitfalls, but it’s still something that requires an eye like yours. So tell me a bit more about your journey, because obviously we’ve worked together, so I’d love to have a little moment to touch on what it’s looked like for you to elevate beyond being a personal brand to then building a group program upon your personal brand. Like what was that experience. Like, for you,

33:22

gosh, amazing, honestly. Like, thing is, what you just said was amazing, because it’s so true, even if you forget about AI, it’s like, I came to you. I’m a I am a messaging expert. I know I’m good at this stuff, but I still needed that external voice, like external perspective, to see the wood through the trees. I knew I had a really good offer. I understood that the value I was delivering to clients was that specific business who was making more money was feeling more aligned with themselves. But then how would I turn that into something that felt good and in alignment with like I want to still keep the client experience that’s part of one to one work. So when I came to you to to think about whether I could go group. It was an easy yes, because your personal branding so amazing, but I also knew you understood that perspective. And so we worked together to really understand, like, what elements it was, and what was I doing with every client, every single time, what was the repeated client transformations that I was delivering? And my group program, brave one is all is all of that, and it’s actually been, you know, some of the best client transformation I’ve ever delivered have been through this group program. Because not you know, people actually know more than they think about themselves. And when you’re learning all that perspective, and you have the resources and you have the support to be able to be on that self discovery. So my program is 12 months. So you do three months of intense deep dive, anti shortcut approach on your niche positioning and messaging, but then you are supported for many months after to see it work in the wild. But actually, what I love about group, and why I’m so glad I worked on my program with you, is that it’s the best space I’ve ever created, and that’s a feedback I’ve had back from my clients, like the transformation is felt so much deeper because they’re enabled. The safe space to work on this with the right resources, and then the work I can do becomes deeper is enable me more space in my my life, the cushy way is something I’m never going to go back on now. And I think what you just said earlier about seeing the wood through the trees, even if you’re an expert what you do, you still need support, and so it’s provided a great opportunity for me to provide that space and support for some of the best founders I’ve ever worked with. So that’s my journey, the cushy way of life. I don’t think I’ll ever go back. I mean,

35:28

I absolutely love the way you’ve designed the experience as well, because it’s in alignment with what you stand for as a personal brand, in terms of not, not about creating quick wins. So obviously you get the three month relief of like getting those core pieces nailed down, but I love that it’s a 1212, months of support. And I really think any any listener listening to this right now, regardless as to what you’re investing in, from my experience where you do something for three months, it can give you temporary relief. It’s what, who you become and how you repeat certain habits or do certain things to actually become a master, to truly understand what does and doesn’t work until at some point when you’ve been working with someone like Tania for long enough that you can almost hear what Tania would say, you can start to think, Oh, if I share this with Tania, this hook with Tania, or this angle like I can already, because you’ve been working with Tania long enough to know that you kind of have A little, almost mini version of her in your brain, but that doesn’t happen in three months. It takes longer. So absolutely love that you’ve honored your values and how you’ve designed the program. You’ve honored your client’s experience through how you design the program. And I love that the results people are getting out the other side is amazing, too. I think that’s one of the biggest misconceptions about group programs is a, they have to be enormous, with hundreds of people in and B, that will inevitably mean that you’ll have a worse experience. I love that you’ve broken the mold doing it in a way that works for both you and your clients. It’s gorgeous. Well, thank you.

36:55

And also, one thing to say is that you know when you’re at certain level of business maturity, you don’t want someone to hold your hand the whole time. It’s lovely to feel supported. And I have the deepest relationship with my clients. But you know, when you’re in the stage of stepping into category leadership, you know what you need? Like, you understand that the work needs to get done. So having that opportunity to take that step back, and also, one thing I would say is talking about, AI, this whole theme of today’s podcast, is like, I think about like, the best book you’ve ever read like it is a journey, it is a deepening experience. Some of the best books I’ve ever read are, like, 600 pages long, and I think we’re losing we can it’s amazing to see your business and your story from that lens of like you’re on a journey. You know you deserve to take the time to deepen your relationship with yourself, and you want to give your clients the same way of reading an amazing book an epic experience and transformation, and feel something at the end of that, feel moved. And that’s just the kind of thesis and that I want to bring back into how we message out and market our businesses, because whilst we need to have quick success, ultimately, you’re building a business for the long term, and you deserve to feel like you’re building a body of work. So my group program and the work I’ve done with you, Polly, it’s been amazing for me recognizing the strength in that experience. So for anyone that ever wants to think about going group, Polly is the person to do she’s the best business coach

38:13

in the world. Later. No, thank you so much for saying that. Oh my goodness, I love everything you’re saying. And I just think you’ve dropped so much gold on this episode. And like, you know, in my mind, and I really would like to hear if there’s anything you feel that’s been missed, but one thing that I really felt listening to you is the beauty of a personal brand extends well beyond what I think most people are conscious of. A lot of people immediately associate personal brands with more engagement on social media, better performing ads. But you know the fact that, as you mentioned, it extends all the way through to your ability to sell on a sales call, the likelihood of somebody wanting you on a stage, you are a beautiful representation today as to having a strong personal brand, and the power that carries when you’re interviewed on a in a podcast, because here you and I have had such a natural, non scripted conversation, yet at the same time, that introduction you came in with was so strong, and there were clear threads for us to explore in the conversation today which were very unique and not generic, personal branding advice, but very unique to Your what you want to bring to the table, like it you are the walking personification as to why this work matters so much. But beyond that, you know, talking from the group experience. And I just really want to emphasize this, people can hate group programs where they’re sat opposite a bunch of people who they’re like, how on earth did you get here? Like, how did you find me? And why did you buy for me? And it really does change the game when you’ve got a strong personal brand. You know, people who come to my I had clients last night sending me lobster jumpers saying, Oh, this is where you can find. I found another lobster jumper for you. Polly, Oh, I saw these cherries in the shop today. And you know, a lot of my clients really genuinely become friends, and that is. Be a benefit to having a strong personal brand, where people either go, Who the hell is she in a towel and a retro shoot, or think, Oh, I could do with a bit of boldness and courage and fun that this woman’s having, like, let’s get into her world like it does. It’s Marmite, and that’s what you want with a personal brand. And so I guess that’s also where you mentioned the identity piece. It does take some personal development work to get to the stage where you are willing. Oh, my God, I feel like we’ve opened up a whole episode, the whole like opening yourself up to be willing to be disliked, which is, you know, quite a vulnerable thing to do. But in terms of the conversation we’ve had today, is there anything you feel like, you know, my listeners need to hear that we’ve not touched on today.

40:43

I think the one thing I do really want to say is like you can see my chicken in the background. It It takes courage, like my brand is called Brave, but because it takes courage to recognize that you want, you know more, that you want to step up and involve your business like you said. You’re not always going to be liked, and that is an amazing thing. That is positioning done right. You cannot be for everything. So if you are in and I think you’ve all been through stages of business where we want to be liked, and as a result, we sacrifice saying the thing that needs to be said. And I think if you provide your personal brand with what needs to be said to make my clients life better, and forgetting the noise of having to be liked being brave and courageous, and to asking yourself, What are you prepared to not say as well? What are you prepared to stand behind? All of these things take guts. So if you’re thinking about evolving your messaging and evolving how you show up for your brand and your business, just know that that’s super courageous, and I’m supporting and applauding anyone who is willing to go against the algorithm and just be bold enough to be themselves. It’s a tough thing to do, but you can do it, and you can own your story, both creatively and commercially. It’s not a myth. You can do both, and this is where the intersection of my work lives. But just know, if you are thinking about it, getting itchy feet, it’s probably a sign it’s time for a bit of a level up as well.

42:05

I love that. Yeah, I feel like sometimes it could be the steepest curve for someone personally in business, and at the same time, the views on the other side are totally worth it. So if anyone’s listening to you and thinking, how do I learn more about Tania the brave bird, you know, how do I find out more? Where are you? Which platform can they find you on?

42:26

So I’m on LinkedIn as Tania Chakraborti, but you can find me most active on Instagram, Tania dot brave bird. I also have a freebie out at the moment called why your respect is not yet a brand, a little bit of a sassy title, but it really is for you to a diagnostic, to be able to be able to understand which stage of your business maturity you’re in, to understand which strategy for your messaging is going to best serve you.

42:48

Yeah, I love the loose and loud identity. Okay, I want to do this. Is it a quiz, or is it a checklist? What is it?

42:55

It is light. It’s a diagnostic. And have a good read. It’s it’s serving a lot of shade, but in a good way, healthy shade.

43:04

Love that. Okay, well, that will be in the show notes. You know, there’ll be Tania’s Instagram URL as well as the link to the guide, so you can go download that right now. Make yourself a cup of tea. Read the guide, Tania. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I’ve so enjoyed talking with you. I feel like I could talk to you for hours, but this will have to do for now. I’ll have to get you back on the show so we can talk even more about it. But thank you. Thank you so much.

43:26

Thank you so much for having me. It was a joy.

43:29

Okay, I don’t think I need to say that I loved that conversation, and if you took one thing from it today, please let it be this. Your personal brand isn’t a vibe, a color palette, or tell me three fun facts. Ai prompt, it’s the through line. It’s what you’re brave enough to stand behind. And when you build it as a body of work, it makes sales feel lighter, content feel clearer, and your business feels like it finally has a spine. If you want to connect with Tania, she’s the most active on Instagram at Tania dot, brave bird. And you can also find her on LinkedIn as Tania Chakraborti. But all of her wonderful links are in the show notes, including her free diagnostic, diagnostic, diagnostic. Can’t say the word diagnostic guide. There we go. Why you’re respected, not yet a brand Oof. That’s, you know, like I say, linked in the show notes too. So make yourself a cup of tea. Have a proper read and prepare for some healthy shade in the best possible way. All right, my love. I hope this episode helped you. Please do share it with anyone else who might be stuck in the quick win hamster wheel. We know we hate to see them there, and I’ll see you in the next episode bringing you more cushy CEO wins so that you can run your business in a way that feels great, where you’re not just counting the years to your retirement, but every day actually feels good. I’ll see you then you.