00:00

Welcome to Make More Money without Selling Your Soul with me Polly Lavarello, evergreen marketing expert. This podcast is for you if you are an online entrepreneur who is looking to simplify their business to scale.  On this podcast you can expect to hear regular talk about wealth, about selling and about wellbeing. Because I believe these three core fundamental things are pivotal to your growth moving forward.

00:45

welcome to make more money without selling your soul with myself, Polly lavarello, and today, I have a guest on the show, Emma Griffin. Emma is a copywriter working with coaches, consultants and creatives who are done DIYing and are ready for the real thing. With a decade long career working with service businesses and big name brands like the white company, bloomer wild and Harrods, Emma understands all the moving parts of creating not only copy that sells, but a full website messaging strategy that ensures you stand out in a saturated market. Ready to move from the kids table to the adults table, Emma is the one to make it happen. I’m so excited to have Emma on the show today. She is actually, or was actually, one of my clients who developed the most phenomenal program in the time that she worked with me, and the knowledge she shared on websites was second to none. So I knew she had to come on the show to share her incredible expertise with you. Welcome Emma to the show. Oh my gosh. I’m so excited to be talking to you today about websites, but before we get into that, so I already managed to talk over you. That’s, that’s, that’s my world record right there.

01:57

I think I might have spoken over you to be fair. No, no, no, that I left a pause there and then just jumped right in. But anyway, welcome to the show, Emma. Today. We’re talking about websites and the importance of websites. I know that was a blandest introduction to talking about websites, but believe me, this is going to get juicy where you’re going to hear stuff that you’ve not considered before, but before we get into that, Emma, welcome. Tell us a bit more about yourself.

02:21

Okay? So this is the million dollar question that everyone hates, right? So, yeah, in a nutshell, in my fancy bio, I am a copywriter, which is why I’m sitting here today talking to you about websites, and websites are kind of like my thing. That’s where I’ve definitely hung my hat, and it’s what I love to do for people, because they’re just so important for your business. But effectively, I’ve been doing this for just over a decade now, which feels quite weird to say, but I work now with coaches, consultants and creative business owners who are ready for the real thing. So real messaging, real voice of customer, real strategy behind your messaging, and obviously real copy as well from someone who knows what they’re doing. And equally, are ready for the real thing in their business, like you’re ready for that next level, and your copy is going to be the thing that helps you to get there. I love that.

03:06

And I’m curious to know why websites, as a copywriter, obviously, there’s various different avenues you could have explored. What was it about websites that drew you to kind of specializing in them?

03:19

I actually don’t think there’s like, a cool, sexy answer to that. I wish there was basically i. So my background was I worked in corporate. So I worked with kind of fashion and lifestyle brands, and I was a copywriter who was working across, like, the entire marketing strategy. Of course, websites are a small touch point of that. My business came to be just before the pandemic. And as we all know, suddenly, 2020 we were chronically online, and everyone was coming to me all of a sudden, specifically for websites, because they all thought Shit like, my website is terrible and I can’t go out and network and build relationships in the way that I used to, I have got to get my act together and, like, start showing up properly online as a professional if I want to keep my business going through this weird time. So really, it was kind of a supply and demand thing, I suppose. And then through that, I realized I really liked it. I realized I really liked working with those smaller businesses and entrepreneurs like myself, usually service providers, and it just kind of ballooned from there, like I’ve offered lots of different things, but websites are really like the thing that weirdly does get me quite excited. I love the amount of sort of personality you can put into someone’s positioning and messaging, even though so many of us are online doing very, very similar things. You can really, like, you can really show off your point of difference on a website in the way that you can’t on something like your social media strategy that has to be, like, piecemeal over time that people start to get a feel for what you’re about on a website. It can hit them, like, right from the get go.

04:57

Amazing. Yeah. Now I’m really excited to be talking to you about websites, because I do feel like it’s one of those things that people build really excitedly when they first start out in business. Like, what’s the first thing you do when you become self employed and you are serious and you’re gonna make some real money and make a real difference? And that skeptical partner, you’re like, I’m gonna prove you wrong. You go out, you get your logo designed, or you go make one up on Canva. I mean, I went and got one, but whatever. Beyond that, then you go get your website, and that’s when they turn around, go, have you got brand colors and what? But everyone goes and gets that website. They know they need to have a website. But on the other side of that, people then get distracted with social media, building funnels, all of that jazz, and before you know it, your websites become this dusty old relic that interestingly, even when I talk to multi six figure business owners who come to me for a kind of audit and to kind of tidy up all their funnels and stuff, I always ask for their website data, like eight times out of 10. They’re not even like looking at Google Analytics, two times out of 10. They haven’t even put tracking on their website, so we can’t even look at that data. And nearly every single time, I will say to them, oh my gosh, you’ve got this one blog post that’s performing phenomenally and bringing loads of people into your world, but you know, and and they are shocked because they’ve not looked at their website for so long. So for the people who’ve been neglecting their websites beyond what I’ve just shared, why should they be prioritizing them?

06:37

Yeah, it’s so true. It’s like you say, it’s the thing that we get really excited about. We buy our domain name, and that feels almost like as professional as like signing onto Companies House if you’re in the UK, and like registering yourself as a proper business owner, the domain and the logo are the two things that go hand in hand, feeling like you’re legit. And obviously, I think it’s very easy to think, Okay, well, I’ve done that. I’ve got my website now. That’s a one and done thing. I’ve ticked my box. There you go, website. But the thing is, like when you’re in business, your business is going to change and evolve. And the messaging that you had and the copy that you had when you first started out or a couple of years into your business is very unlikely to be the messaging that you need to be attracting the clients at that new level of business. Your services are going to evolve. Your expertise is evolved. The way your story ties into it all as an overarching strategy is going to have changed, and you need to meet people at that new level if you want to be seeing conversions. And like you say, so many people are kind of just leaving their website to gather dust. They’re not actually thinking, okay, is this actually doing anything for me? And the thing is, whether or not it is run, you get traffic going to it, you may have loads of leads. If you were to go and look under the hood, there may be loads of leads and like, zero conversions. And that’s an issue. It either means it’s a functionality problem, or most likely, it is a messaging and positioning problem, because people are getting excited somewhere along the journey. So all that time and money that you’ve you’ve poured into perfecting your funnels, getting your course on Kajabi or whatever, doing your podcast, maybe even doing TED Talks and books, that is all generating interest for you. However, if people are then getting super excited from these to work with you, they’re like, What are they going to do? They’re going to go and search for you and check out your website. And if they click and it is something from like, I would say, 2000 and late, like, it’s it’s disappointing, and all of a sudden, all that legitimacy that you built up in their minds, they’re basically ready to buy from you. And if it’s not clear anymore, like how they can do that from you and why they should that is going to be an issue. Your website needs to be a living and breathing thing that evolves as your business does.

08:54

Yeah, and I would argue that the words you have on your website are way more important than the actual esthetic of the website, in terms of you can obviously pay someone loads of money to kind of design your website, but if the words on it aren’t doing anything, then it’s really not worth very much. If you’ve not thought about the user journey, like I quite often talk to people who’ve built their website pre 2020 and it’s like some kind of Argos catalog. It’s so full of all the different things and all the different stories and all the different blogs and all that, and it’s such a mess to navigate. And the hilarious thing is, this is maybe a bit judgmental saying hilarious, but quite often their argument to me about why they shouldn’t update their website is, oh, but there’s too much stuff to go through there. You know, I wouldn’t know what to get rid of and what to keep I’m like, if that’s how you feel about your website, how do you think someone landing on it feels nobody is that invested or interested in you at that stage to go through all of those pieces? I mean, so for that person who has got, you know, their whole life and their dog on their website right now, with all the trappings, what would your advice be to them?

10:01

Like anyone would say, if you have the same issue, but you’ve been hoarding a load of shit in your house, you need to clean it out. You need to clean that out to figure out who you are without all that extra shit. And likewise, the people who are looking to work with you, it needs to be clear why. And therefore, you need to have strong positioning from copy that tells them that why, you know, differentiates you from other people in the market, which is quite likely to be very saturated, clearly explains your story in a way that brings your expertise to the fore and resonates with the right people and has a strategy that underpins it you need, and that needs to be simple. We don’t have loads of time. But really interestingly, I think, you know, there’s a lot of people that say, you know, you have X amount split seconds to grab attention. People are scrolling. They’re busy. That is all true. However, I think if we all think about when we got really fixated on somebody that we found online and wanted to work with, we were actually quite terrifying, like the levels we would go to to sift through what they had. Yeah, that needs to be simple. Like, the things that we’re looking for, the message needs to land, and that’s got not going to land if there’s like, 15 plus weird pages, I think what I find the most is we either get people like that, where it’s like the Argos catalog of horrors, or it’s like they kind of never really had one in the first place, and it’s been doing fine for long enough that they’re like, oh, you know, well, I get people from social media or, like, I get them from referral. But do you not want to also have this amazing 24/7 sales team, which is just there whether you’re unwell, whether you’re on holiday, whether you’re in a launch or not. It’s doing a lot of your job for you. You’re not actively networking, but your website is there actively networking for you on Google? Yeah.

11:45

And I think the main thing is when it’s done well, it really doesn’t need to be overly complicated. So I feel like talking to you, we’ve gotten really clear that a website is really, really important, and the words on your website are really, really important in terms of what it does for you as its own kind of Sales Machine, as it does for tightening up your brand positioning and authority. I also find the exercise of creating my website almost becomes my own kind of brand Bible, because by the time I’ve got a really good about page, a really clear page that helps people understand how I help them, that helps me tighten up my messaging across the board, like well beyond the website. Now let’s get to the next phase. If someone’s listening and they’re like, Okay, I hear you. I need, I need a better website. Thank goodness I’m listening to this episode and thank goodness Polly’s introduced me to Emma. The next thing they’re probably thinking about is, oh, but can I afford to outsource it? What would you say to that person who’s deliberating? Do I outsource it, or do I take my kind of messy words and try and make something work like, what? Obviously I know the answer to this because I’ve worked with you, so I’d love you to share like, what? What would they what? What should they be doing?

12:52

It’s totally up to them. And my business, very conveniently, has evolved in three different ways. So obviously there’s the full all singing out dancing option to outsource it. And I think this is good for people who really recognize that they’re at a level where they want other experts to come in and see what they can about themselves, like when you’re when you’re buying copywriting. You are not just buying words. You are buying someone who is a strategist who can sift through all the data the customer, research through the voice of customer from your testimonials and sometimes even client interviews, and assemble that into a story and an overarching message, which, to be quite frank, most people can’t see and do for themselves, because we cannot. I hate this expression, because everyone uses it, but you can’t see the label from inside the jar. And that is that’s relevant to every type of business owner. It’s even relevant to me, despite the fact that I do this for other people, it’s much harder for me to do it myself. And so there’s huge value in just actually, just giving it to somebody else who will be able to show you a fresh perspective, almost on your business, and, like you say, give you that messaging, which will then evolve and apply and roll out really easily across all of your other channels, and give you a bit of a boost of inspiration.

14:05

I’m going to jump in here because actually, one of the pieces you touched on there, in terms of them, sifting through, you know, data and all the kind of assets your business already has, and making sense of them. One of the mistakes I made, I don’t want to say mistake, but one of the investments I made earlier on in my business, not with Emma, but with a copywriter. One of the reasons why I believe it wasn’t as fruitful as it could have been is that I was so early on and I just didn’t have the kind of lived business experience for them to kind of really get the kind of core essence as to what I really stood for and who I really loved working with. To be honest with you, I don’t think I even knew. I don’t think I could give her that information. And what I’ve been able to evolve as a brand in terms of my punchiness and, you know, sassiness and cheekiness in the way that my brand stands out has come through a kind of maturity of business. So I do think. There’s an argument for when you are that established CEO who is already probably kind of really working in their zone of genius. Does it pay to suddenly learn how to become a copywriter, not necessarily, and outsourcing, it is a really good thing to do. But I think what you just touched on in terms of having stuff for them to sift through, I think is a really, really important piece. I’ve heard people say, I want to do it early on. There’s absolutely no chance I can do it by myself. And for them, I’d be like, Well, what you’re about to say now is probably the better option for them, because I think it’s also very eye opening for them and will help them when you can learn your own words. It’s also going to help you in every other context, right? But I’m going to let you share the other thing, if you’re not outsourcing, what’s the other alternative?

15:42

Yeah, so the other alternative, and this is something that obviously I created in collaboration with you. I came to you because I knew that there was a big gap in the market for people who were less far on in their business, but had been running it enough that they had this customer data there. They just didn’t really know how to use it themselves, but equally, didn’t necessarily have the budget or understand the importance of outsourcing it in full. And that’s fine. Like if you love to write, you absolutely can learn the fundamental nuts and bolts of writing good copy. And I was also getting a lot of people coming to me, so my third way I work with people is just a copy clinic. So that is a an in and out nice and quick. You give me your current DIY copy, I go away with it for a few days. I basically get my red pen all over it, like a teacher at school, and I move it around, I cut things out, I change the positioning, I re hook it so that the story it’s leading with is different. But people were kind of wanting to book that service, and they were getting stuck at the first hurdle, because they knew that they could write and they wanted to DIY their copy. But then they were asking me things like, Oh, well, I’ve actually just tried to start doing my homepage, and I’m like, tripping over the structure I don’t actually know. Like, what do I need to put? How many words should I have? Do I need a what? Like, what do I do with a bio? Should I have a bio? And all these things that that actually are really easy to trip you up when you’re early on and when it’s about your own business. So I was like, Okay, there’s a there’s a second option here, and that then became the group program that I developed with you, which is, write your site right? And that takes you through. It’s now a 10 week course. It was originally eight, but I was like, let’s give people some breathing space for the next rounds. So it’s a 10 week course, basically where I take people through every element of what I am doing when I work with a client. So how I’m looking at the customer research, how I’m compiling it, what I’m looking for, so that they can do that for their own business. And then the latter part of the course is literally taking them through everything they need to structure homepage, about page and services pages, but it’s very flexible. Like frameworks are good, but I don’t like it when they like squish out creativity in people. So it’s very much a guide, and I am there to help and give bespoke advice for people, which is so nice.

17:56

I absolutely love it. I mean, for one, it can tell you’re a copywriter, write your site, right? What a fabulous name. But beyond that, you know, I remember when we were kind of when you were developing this, and I was kind of providing my feedback. The thing I love about it is the core issue I see in so many online business owners is the inability to succinctly, kind of share who they are and their kind of origin story, I guess, which you’d pop into a bio. They can’t really talk about their services succinctly. They don’t really understand very often, how they all add up together and how to kind of position those either. And they just don’t really know how to do all of these pieces, which is so much more than a website that’s going to impact the clarity in your messaging, on your social media, that means you probably will be thinking, I would love to do a TED talk, but I have no idea what it would be about. You know, it means that if you’re in a room and someone’s asking about the work you do, you’re probably going to be falling over your words because you don’t know it. So while yes, they’re going to come out the other end with a fabulous website, they’re also going to come out with a clarity of understanding their messaging, and, as you said, said earlier, positioning in a way that they didn’t before. So I just think it’s so powerful. And what I particularly love is the time frame that you do this in, that it’s, you know, did you say 10 weeks? Now it’s 10, yeah. So

19:15

it’s certainly the faint hearted. It is a commitment. Yeah, that’s around the that’s around the time that it would take me, my process is six to eight weeks, and I give them a bit of breathing space, because they’re not a copywriter I can use quicker.

19:28

Yeah, I love that, because ultimately, most of the time, if you want something done, you want it done soon, and so that enables it. And also, I think it’s much more powerful to kind of go through a process in a deep focus mode and just make it your priority. And that that’s a powerful thing to do in business as a whole. So often we’re like, let’s get it done and get it done the next day. And then we end up just feeling like we’re driving our business car down the road with like, everything’s like, rattling and everything’s about to fall off. And it’s no wonder people end up feeling like, Oh, my business feels so uncertain. It’s like, yes, because you’ve taped it all together and. That’s the beauty of doing a thorough process supported by an expert like you, is that people can feel confident out the other side that what they’ve built is really, really strong. So if someone is in a position where they’re just looking at their website thinking, Well, do I need to do this, or is this something I can just leave what would you say are the kind of clear earmarks of a website that definitely needs a spruce up.

20:24

I think the first thing is, like, Do you have a bit of a sense of embarrassment around people going to it? I think that’s the first thing. Like, do you feel confident when you see people clicking it? Or is there a part of you that is holding back in calls to action on social media or networking events, like, do you want people to see it? I think that’s the first biggie. Like, if you feel any sort of shame around it, it’s clearly not aligned with where you’re at now, something about it feels a bit kind of kids table, and you want to be at the adults table equally, as we said earlier, for anyone who does ever look under the hood of their business and look at the stats, like, if you’re getting traffic to it, but then there’s a high bounce rate all the time, or there’s no actual conversions, then that is telling you something, people are seeking you out, but then, for whatever reason, they’re not taking action. And my job as a copywriter is to write copy that makes people take action. And third, I think it’s the thing you touched on, really. It’s that the stumbling over the describing of what we do. So one not being able to succinctly articulate what we do, which will then drip into kind of everything else, whereas having this underpinning umbrella message that we can put all of our like services, all of our expertise under suddenly makes everything feel so much more simple when we’re talking about it. And I did have a fourth, but I went off on a tangent. My fourth is gone for now. But three is a nice number. I love three. Three’s Great. Have another, another, another. The thing is, like your inquiries, so you might actually be getting inquiries, but if those inquiries are not the right people. Then again, it’s like you’re calling in somehow the wrong fits for your business. So it might mean that you’re spending a lot of time on Discovery calls that either then don’t go anywhere at proposal stage, or you actually don’t want to work with those people, or you’re letting in people who you know are not the right fit for your offer. So that’s actually quite a big one, like, is it attracting the people you want to work with or not?

22:23

I love that Emma and I really glad we had this conversation. One little secret about myself I don’t often like to admit to is, while in the past, I’ve invested close to 10,000 pounds, I say it’s slightly wincing, having my website built for me on Kajabi, which, of course, I then left about a year later. So obviously had to start all over again. I then ended up just using a show it template designed by a graphic designer, and I invested more money in the words than in the actual template, and equally, in photography. To be fair, I didn’t I didn’t mess around with that either. And actually, I get so many compliments on my website all the time. I actually have messages from people going, oh my god, I’m obsessed with your obsessed with your website. So one of the reasons why I’m obviously I invited you on today’s podcast is I am a living person who has had that, you know, experience of words, really. Do you know? I always say to people, start with the words, everything else will make more sense when you start with the words. And a lot of people resist that, because that feels like the most intimidating thing to do. But if you’re going to invest money in your website, I would much sooner invest it in a good copywriter, or learning how to be a good copywriter myself than invest it in some shiny website that does all sorts of clever UX things. But if like you say, if the messaging on there isn’t actually activating people, if it’s not, kind of helping people feel that sense of clarity. You know, all of those things have a huge impact on, essentially, the authority I get from somebody like most of websites I love the most have the least words on, and that, to me, kind of says I’m here. I know what I’m doing. You can be safe with me. But, you know, and that’s the other thing as well about copywriting, right? Is that good copywriting is usually way less words than the words we’d use ourself. So Emma, thank you so much for sharing all your pearls of wisdom with us today. Is there anything else you’d like to add about websites before we wrap up and you share how people can learn more about you and the work you do?

24:19

Not really, but as you were talking about that, I actually think confession, very good real life case in point is that you upgraded your messaging about a year ago and started really speaking to where I was at in my business, and made it so clear what you could do and how you could help me, that despite the fact we’ve been following each other for probably about five years, that was the catalyst, actually, To me being like, ah, Polly, I’m gonna work with Polly. It’s just, and that was purely, that was purely when you had slightly updated your copy, and I it made me pay up, but, like, pay attention effectively all over again. So never underestimate the power of it, because you are living proof of that. Love that. And yeah, and what? How people can work with me, so people can work. Of me, obviously, with bespoke copywriting, they can book in for a copy clinic. If you’re like slightly newer business owner, more of a DIY approach, that’s absolutely fine. I can take a look at what you have DIY, and we can sort that out to kind of meet you where you’re at now, and then, as we discussed earlier, I have my group program write your site right which is currently underway. We’re on the second round of it, but I will be there’s a wait list open currently for when I reopen it at some point in spring 2025 for the next round.

25:28

Love that get on the wait list, guys, the link is going to be in the show notes, so you can go find it there. Emma, thank you so much for your time today. And yeah, thank you.  Thank you. Well, I hope today’s episode has got you so linking back into your website’s bed, ready to make up and ready to give it the love and attention that it deserves, because it can be such a powerful asset for your business. And do go on and check out Emma. All her details are in the show notes below. As always, if you found this episode helpful, and how could you not, please do share it. And you know, tag me if you do on social media. I always love to see who’s enjoying and sharing these episodes. And if that all seems like too much work, simply just pop down below the episode and give me a lovely five star rating. It would make this woman’s heart very happy. And in the meantime, I shall be back in your ears next week with a solo episode talking about everyday sales and how to create them with your marketing, with rinse and repeat strategies that you can use Weekly, Monthly and year round. I’ll be in your ears.