00:00

Welcome to Make More Money Without Selling Your Soul. The podcast for bold entrepreneurs ready to simplify scale and reclaim their time. I’m Polly Lavarello, Evergreen scaling strategist and cushy business pioneer. Join me and my occasional guests as we explore the themes of wealth, selling and well-being, because building a business that works for you changes everything. Let’s dive in.

00:37

Hello and welcome to the show. If you have ever found yourself overthinking an Instagram caption or rewriting your website for the third or fourth time this year and found yourself quietly wondering whether you are actually good enough to write your own copy and be the messenger of your business, then this episode is for you, because the truth is, messaging does matter a lot, not just for your website or your content, but how you communicate your value, how you build trust, and how people decide whether you’re the right person to buy from. And we don’t just do that when we’re writing it down. We do that and how we communicate on a podcast, on a stage and in conversation, and very importantly, on sales calls. So it really, really matters to master your message, which is why I’m so excited to be joined by the brilliant Beth Robinson, business owner turned copywriter and founder of proper lush copy, who is on a mission to help business owners realize that, yes, you absolutely can write. I’m excited for you to hear this conversation, because, of course, we couldn’t be in 2026 and be discussing copywriting without touching on AI and how to use it in a way that doesn’t allow it to minimize your voice, dull your voice, make you sound like another word salad on the internet, and how to actually be heard and witnessed in your brilliance and your uniqueness. What’s exciting about this conversation is Beth shares her own journey with dyslexia, insecurity around writing, and how she turned something that once felt like a weakness into the foundation of the work that she now does so brilliantly. So if you’ve been thinking, it’s not for you, Beth’s story is going to really inspire you. So without further ado, let’s dive straight into the conversation. Welcome to the show Beth. I’m so, so happy to have you here. You’ve been in my world now since, oh, it was last summer. Was it last summer? Atomicon, yeah, last summer. Yeah, years.

02:37

Polly, it feels longer, because, yeah, I mean anyway, but before I get all excitable, please introduce yourself to my listeners. So thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to chat with you today. My name is Beth Robinson, and I’m a copywriter, and obviously I fell into Polly’s world because I just love her ethos. And who doesn’t want to have a cushy business, right? But yeah, so my My background is in starting up businesses, and I fell into marketing because you got to do everything when you’re a bit when you’re your own business owner. And then I got really niched down into copywriting, because I realized just how key your messaging is and how it’s a little bit of a linchpin that everything needs to revolve around in your business. So, yes, that’s that’s kind of me in a nutshell. So I have a copywriting business that’s called proper lush copy, and I absolutely love it.

03:31

I love the name of your copywriting business, and copywriting, I mean, I just love talking about copywriting, because it’s such a bone of contention for a lot of business owners. A lot of people have a lot of insecurities around copywriting, don’t they absolutely and I, I have no shame about the fact that I got into copywriting because I felt that it was a huge gaping hole in kind of my toolbox of skills and my background is that I was a smart kid in school, but I had serious issues. I was dyslexic, and the result of that was that, like my teachers constantly told me, that I lacked flow, and when you’re kind of in your teenage years, you programmed that into your brain. As I can’t write, and I’m really bad at this, my grammar was absolutely atrocious, as well as my spelling and yeah, and I kind of carried that right into my business years. And I think I started diving into copywriting, so I realized how essential it was. And at the time, I was like, I’m so bad at it, I need help. So that’s kind of five, six years ago. Now, I fell down that rabbit hole I love

04:39

that you’re sharing that because my daughter’s dyslexic and ADHD and autistic and a bunch of other things. But one thing I’ve really learned about any form of neurodivergency is often neurodivergents are also the most creative and often the most likely to be brave enough and courageous enough to start their own business. So I’ve never taken weirdly enough, even though I’ve known you. Time, and I knew about your dyslexia, it’s only just in this moment that I thought, yeah, what a contradiction it must be to have all that creativity that drive that vision, but then to feel insecurity around your words. How did you get past that?

05:13

I think when you’re running your business, there’s so many insecurities that you have to get past. Never so I think I just it was a matter of, I need to do this, and I need to figure it out. And at the time, there was no capacity to outsource it like it had to be, it had to be me or nothing. It was make or break. And I think that was always a real crunch point in self development and discovering new things about yourself is when you’re like there is no other option, either I do it or my business fails. And I think it was a real kind of crossroads where I had to just learn what it was to build a personal brand, learn what it was to write myself into my business and to put it out there for the world to to see and to share and to connect with. And that is that is at the heart of copywriting, isn’t it? Is that that ability to connect with people and to pull those psychological levers with people that allow them to take action and ultimately feel like you are the right person and the right business for them?

06:21

Yeah, no, this makes so much sense to me. And you know, what’s funny is, as I was listening to you, I was thinking about how in romantic relationships, we often emphasize the importance of communication, and that if you can’t communicate well with one another, your relationship is going to quickly fall to pieces. And it’s exactly that, you know, you know, sales is relationships. Relationships need good communication. That’s a weird, tenuous link I’m drawing to this. But you know, it is that thing that, like you say, it is a non negotiable skill. And like I say, I love the fact that, with the Dyslexic background, even with that potentially being something that could have held you back, like you say, an online business or entrepreneurialism at all, you know, full stop. There’s so many insecurities and personal blocks that we need to kind of navigate our way around and move forward. So what I love is, not only did you learn to be confident enough to write your own messaging for your own business, but you then actually kind of elevated to now doing that for other businesses. Can you share more about that journey? What did that look like?

07:23

That looked like, I think my whole business journey, I’ve done things and people have gone, oh, Beth, could you help me with that? That’s basically how things have grown. So, so and that’s, that’s how my that’s how my copywriting business group, really, I was, I was doing it. I was talking about it, and I started to get people connecting with me and wanting help with copywriting, because I also come from quite a rural community, and copywriting is quite a foreign concept, and I think a lot of people might relate to this is when you when you are in small, kind of off the Internet communities. Then there are concepts that are quite foreign, I think, in day to day business. And yeah, being connected with people, and being in networking groups where you are a copywriter and you’re talking about this incredible power that words have, and when you use them correctly, and you use them in a way that’s full of integrity and realigned with who you are, you can see huge strides in your business growth.

08:29

Yeah, no, that makes sense. Okay, so for anyone who’s listening and is earlier on in that journey and is trying to wrap their head around being a good copywriter, where should they even start?  So I love this question, because my my heart really with copywriting is is all steeped in that background of me feeling too inadequate to put my words out there and not feeling or just feeling really vulnerable about it. And I think I really want business owners to know that they are really in the in the perfect position to write for their businesses and upskilling in the sense that understanding, like core principles of copywriting, is, I think, an essential part of the toolbox you want as a business owner. And you don’t even have to, you don’t have to have amazing writing skills. You don’t have to be a novelist, you you just have to know what you’re communicating and why, and then a few techniques and like templates. And when I say templates, I don’t mean like copy and paste, but I mean like frameworks that kind of help you get there and help you communicate that transformation that you offer to your clients. So I would say that you don’t have to put a lot of pressure on your writing. You really just in this day and age and the amount of content that that people produce, and that is out there, it really is communicating your truth and and how you help people in a very clear way. And if you can kind. Of get to grips and get to the basics of that you will fly with all your writing. You really will.

10:08

Yeah, and you know, what I think is so important about copywriting is that, like being clear with your message a really great way to kind of reinforce how important this is. I was sat 111 airplane row away from Simon Squibb. Is that his name? I think that’s his name. The What’s your dream guy, the guy that like funds, various businesses, and the kind of guy that, if I had a really solid elevator pitch, as they call it, if you’re stuck in an elevator for a few minutes, and you can explain what you do, not even a few minutes, a few seconds. And in that moment, I just couldn’t think of like a worldwide view as to what it is that I do. And honestly, I spent the whole car journey home afterwards kind of kicking myself, thinking, there I was sat next to one of the most influential men on the internet right now, doing phenomenal work, and all I wanted to do was to introduce myself to him, even to get a moment of his time or energy would have been amazing. But there was something in that moment. I mean, I did also have my children me. So children with me, so I can blame them, but, but you know, what we do extends well beyond the page, well beyond social media, well beyond hooks for social media, it’s, it is those moments where you either are on a stage or in front of somebody impressive who could read, and your confidence in being able to communicate what you do is so so important, but earlier on, people can get so confused. And the other thing I love about what you shared there is, I think one of the biggest challenges for business owners small business owners, is that, in my world, for example, a lot of them have studied nutritional therapy or physiotherapy or somatics and coaching, and that’s an entirely different skill set to marketing. And on top of that, a lot of my clients are incredibly brilliant. You know, they’re very intelligent, very academic, so that fear of publicly failing is even more more of a thing. Throw on top the ethics that they’re bound to. It can really create a lot of hesitation around copywriting, which kind of brings me to AI actually, because obviously what we’re seeing right now is a lot of people trying to lean into AI tools. What’s your perspective on that?

12:15

So AI is, I think AI is, is with us now. It’s not going anywhere fast. And I think that as business owners, it’s about looking at the tools that are out there and playing with them, and treating AI as an experimental arm to your marketing would probably the best way I would describe it, and to use it to become more efficient and to use it to release your creativity. I don’t think as copywriters or as business owners, we can shy away from Ai. I think it is something that we need to make sure we’re using well, but we’re using within the integrity of our business and our business values and and who we want to be and project and never, never let AI run away without you, I think is the best way for me to describe it like and if you have, if you’ve done some copywriting work in terms of your personal brand and your messaging and knowing your voice, you are in that authoritative position within The context of using AI in order to direct it. It has to be your ideas. It has to be your oversight. I was in a class, an AI class, a little while back, and it was all about using AI with CEO level thinking. And I just loved that analogy, because I think a lot of people use AI thinking that it’s a it’s a golden bullet that that you can like you, it turns out what you need, and you can run with it. And that is just so not the case. It’s like having potentially, like a like a Junior Assistant, and you have to sit in your CEO chair, look at it objectively and think, right, is this something that I’m going to work? Is this something that is going to work? Is this something that I can use and making those edits and making those changes to it that work for your business and that are aligned with your business, so that, yeah, so I feel, with AI as well, that I’m like, stuck between two cliffs, because on one side I’ve got copywriters that obviously, like, love the craft of writing, and if you love the craft of writing, then write because it brings you joy, isn’t it? But I’m also, you know, I’ve got this whole business AI world that I feel like I have an obligation to keep up with and to explore and to stay kind of relevant to all the AI changes that are going on who, you know, some, some people are finding huge success with AI written copy. So, yeah, and I feel like there’s pushback from both, isn’t it? And you, I think you have to hold it in the balance and know what your foundations are as a business and what your voice is. And if you don’t have those, those absolute core beliefs in who you are and what you sound like and how you write your your AI is always going to run away with you.

14:58

Yeah, yeah. And I really. Love what you’ve referenced earlier on about coming to AI as a CEO, so kind of having those tools in the first place as a leader to understand your values, to understand what you stand for. Because I think unfortunately, some people even do those kind of exercises using AI and then wonder or wonder why later on, you know that it doesn’t feel or seem like them, and it’s because it was never them in the first place. But just reflecting on what you were saying about, you know, yeah, writing kind of being its own art form, and at the same time, the ease that AI brings, like, personally, I guess one of the things I love about AI is at least it removes, it takes people away from a state of procrastination into action. And, you know, I’m a big believer in momentum, like, the sooner you do the thing, the sooner you’ll learn. But I am also seeing, and I think such a relevant conversation. In fact, I make sure this is published soon, because I feel like, I mean, there’s a lot going on in the AI space right now. For one, a lot of people are moving from chatty to see to Claude, which is his own thing. But there’s also, and this is being recorded in like, early March 2026, there’s also a lot of noise, a lot of pushback around I can tell your podcast script is AI, or I can see that, you know, I my last launch. I had one email that I was slightly guilty of leaving quite AI heavy, because I was launching. There’s a lot going on. And there was one email that just was a bit lazy and a bit of a word salad, and it was the only email that I had two people email me back and complain about, and one of them I actually removed because he was so rude, and he did use the phrase word salad. And I would love to say the man was wrong, but I looked at it and I was like, okay, he wasn’t very polite, but he had a point. So I think you know that obviously must create its own hesitation for people that that fear of being obviously AI, but at the same time recognizing, like I say, the value in but it’s allowing me to get out there and do things with more efficiency. It’s helping personal brands lean. Personal brands without a large team to operate quicker and more effectively. So I guess I’m what I’m curious to know is, how are you using AI within your own business currently, and equally, how are you using it and how you support your clients?

17:15

So I use AI as a research tool and as a there’s two ways I use AI. I use AI as, like a research tool and ideas generator, and also, so when I when I first learned copywriting, I wasn’t on the scene, and to get a good hook, you would have to sit down for, I don’t know, 1020 minutes and just put on some music and just write as many hooks as you could possibly write. Sometimes it took a bit longer, and that process is incredibly time consuming, but incredibly essential for finding those gems. Whereas as a as a copywriter with AI and as a business owner, don’t settle for the first hook like 100% ask AI to give you 50. And that would, that would take a long time to do what five six years ago, whereas now you can do that in a split second. And then, as a copywriter, you can look through all those 50 hooks and pick out the bits that you kind of, as a copywriter know from experience work, but also as a business owner, the things that you can look at and think, Oh, I like that. Like I relate to that the most. And I think that’s where AI really steps into its own, is just being able to have that massive information to disseminate and to apply to your own copy. But then what I’m starting to play with now. And this I’m doing with clients is actually building. So I’ve built them in chatgpt, and now I’m looking at how I do it with Claude, with skills. But actually building bots, isn’t it? It’s building, build building like a database on all my clients that I write for on a regular basis, and getting really, really niched into how they sound and what kind of topics I write for them, and then allowing AI to write various bits and bobs for me, because I want to see how it changes and manifests over time as well. And by building those very, very specific skills, or custom gpts, I can actually get far, far better results in terms of the writing that’s produced than if I was just writing based on memory. Does that make sense?

19:36

So, yeah, particularly as a perimenopausal woman with memory, as you know, already forgetting the notes you sent me, definitely, anything that supports memory is very much in my favor right now.  So I very much. I think I’m a copywriter that’s very pro AI, and I’m pro pro using tools that are going to facilitate my work. But it’s that balance with always keep. Your creativity and your skills as a copywriter front of mind and why you would choose to do something or not.

20:07

Yeah, you know what you’ve just said that I really like is kind of seeing your identity as a copywriter, because I think where it can go wrong is where we outsource AI to be the copywriter. And what you shared just now about asking for 50 hooks and then looking at them. And I love what you said about, you know, not necessarily understanding from a copywriter perspective, because maybe that’s not something you feel confidence around, but even through the lens of, what do you feel excited and activated by when you look at the hooks? And I think that’s actually really important, because the phrase I use time and time again. I’ll probably be saying, my deathbed is be the business you’d like to buy from. But that whole element of like, if it makes you feel icky, if you wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of it, it doesn’t matter if you think it’s more potent than another hook, choose the one that really is in alignment with you, that people will see and connect with you, which, again, can be, I guess, one of the ways it can go wrong with AI, if we outsource all of it. But I think one of the biggest mistakes people can make with AI is like, draft me a whole sales page. But what you shared in terms of breaking it down in terms of 50 hooks, choosing the hook, and then kind of moving on to the next piece, to me just doesn’t just talk about CEO level mentality, but discernment. And I imagine one of the really powerful roles that you play with your clients is helping them exercise that discernment to understand what makes good marketing and what doesn’t. Yeah, 100% so I’ve seen copywriters diversify a little bit, and I offer this to my clients as well, where you can be inside my container, inside proper lush copy secrets, you write your own copy as a business owner, but then you have and you can use as much AI or as little AI to do that as possible. I give you the tools inside to be able to shape your voice in order to get your AI to reflect yourself as much as possible. But then you are also in that container to be able to throw a copy my way and say, Beth, am I on? Am I on the right page with this? Like, is this? Is this too a IE, isn’t it? How do I, how do I make sure this is proper, like, properly me so, and I’ve seen other copywriters offer that same service where you can, you know, rather than have them write the whole thing, you can throw a piece of copy their way and say, as a copywriter, what’s your take? And I think that that is also a really good reference point to kind of bounce your use of AI off to make sure that you are on track, and having those fail safes in place, I think is really, really important. But going back to what you said, Polly, about the your AI email, I think it’s absolutely brilliant that people picked up that it was because it’s, it shows that it was, it was out of context to what you’re what you normally put out, and what your what your marketing is like. So I think that’s something to celebrate in many ways.

22:50

But you know what? Though, once, I’m very lucky that people occasionally just email me and tell me about their situation and their work. And I love to receive those emails, but I do get quite a few DMS and emails, which is great. It’s all part of the fact that I’m running a funnel the time, running ads all the time, and I love that people quickly connect and resonate with my brand. But as you know by now, Beth, I’m neurodivergent, so I can be quite direct, and I say things really succinctly. I’m a marketer, so I don’t tend to I mean, when I’m talking, I’m absolute verbal diarrhea, but when I’m writing, because I’m verbal diarrhea, I really filter it. I filter it and filter it and filter it until it’s like five words. So I responded to this woman, and just kind of touched on all the key points, and I was almost treating it like a marketing exercise. I was like she mentioned this, I’ll respond to that. Respond to this. Respond to that. Finished the email, and she actually responded and said, has that been written by like goodness? And I actually respond to my No. I’m just a bit awkward, neurodivergent and just and I was like, and I have, I have a background in direct marketing, so if I’m being short and concise with my sentences, that was a pre AI. Anyone who’s been in my world longer knows that I’ve always done the short sentences. Always a space between each and all that stuff that comes back to my advertising background, and just because I like it, it’s just a habit. Now I can’t get rid of it, but it made me laugh. I was speaking to my husband about it. He’s like, just, it’s just, it’s just you Paul. So like, if they don’t like it, then that’s kind of, you know, you just gotta cut your losses sometimes, yeah. So sometimes this is interesting to be on the other side where people are so on the hunt of AI that you can no longer say certain phrases or words or write in a certain way, or you and M dashes again, like, weirdly enough, I never use the actual long M dash, but I’ve always used the subtraction because you don’t Like the long one how it looks. Always use the short one, and it’s easier to find on the I don’t even know where the long one isn’t like. I just, yeah, I’ve always been I guess I know. I say, don’t it is it’s above the short one. That would be a giveaway. Wouldn’t it do? Oh, my goodness. So yeah, it’s a rough, rough space out there. But I think the main kind of message I’m getting listening to you is that combination of, like, finding that middle ground. Because I think early on with AI, it was very much a pick a lane type energy, of, like, you know, either you’re a purist and you’re not touching it, or, you know, you’ve sold your soul to the devil and you’re engaging in AI. And I think definitely what I noticed towards the end of last year, beginning of this year, there seemed to be more of a middle ground. People were recognizing AI is where everything is headed. If you’re not starting to use it in any capacity, then really you’re creating an unnecessary disadvantage for yourself, like it really pays to find a way to make it work with AI. Now, I think within that slightly messy middle ground where I think people got potentially overly excited by what AI does. Like, I don’t know about you, but I’m so sick of seeing photographs of people that they’ve, you know, AI images of themselves. And everyone’s like, Oh, you look amazing. Like, oh, it’s an AI image. And I’m like, you don’t need to have perfect, white, shiny teeth will be two dress sizes smaller, like, I like seeing you. So there’s bits like that that I think we’ll look back at one day and laugh and be like, do you remember that time we thought everyone wanted to see us in pink sequins holding a candy cane at Christmas, for example. There’ll be times, but you know, so it is evolving with us. But I feel like the main message I’m getting from your from what you’re sharing, is that as we learn and adapt to whatever kind of AI platform we’re using, it is about discernment, and it is about approaching it with a kind of framework, a kind of rootedness in who we are as a leader and our values and our beliefs, so that we’re not expecting AI to be original. Because I think some of the notes you shared with me, I think the word, the phrase, word salad, was used there as well. So it is about training AI in the way you are, but it needs to start with you. Am I missing anything.

26:51

That is 100% it? And I think that with any piece of copy you write with AI, the the idea needs to come from you. And I would even say, use voice because, because you’re the way you articulate something and the idea that you have behind or the context, basically, it’s the context you’re building into AI. If you, if you go to AI and you say, write me, write me. Five captions about how to how to grow on Instagram, like you’re gonna get just awful, awful output. Whereas, if you come, if you come into it with a story and a purpose, and you’ve got a goal in mind, and you know you want to achieve that goal, and you even communicate with the AI platform that you’re using, the kind of feelings that you want to evoke behind that carousel, or real or whatever it is you’re trying to create or blog introduction, or whatever it is, if you can give the AI the context, and you can steer the AI, you’re going to get a much, much better output. But even after doing that, I’ll say this that you know, it’s not always great, and you you still have to read over it. You still have to edit it. And sometimes, sometimes when I’m when I’m working with AI, I think, oh, goodness, I should have just written this in the first place, because it takes a lot of time, sometimes to be able to get it to a point at which you’re happy with it. But again, like use it, I would say, always use it as a tool where, where it’s useful to you. If you, you know, if you find a lot of joy in in writing, then then write. Because why not? It’s always going to come across more you and more original. If you’re writing it yourself, and you’re writing it from your heart, isn’t it? 

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I really say, like, one really simple thing I do my podcast, if I’m doing a solo episode, is sometimes on the school walk home by myself, or as I’m doing my makeup, I will record it in five minutes, just a little kind of, again, verbal diarrhea, around my thoughts and feelings, around what I want to say. Let’s say about AI and then say, can you tidy up into a few bullet points so I and just make sure there’s a coherent thread and that there’s a clear kind of beginning, middle and end, because that’s where my neurodivergent brain can go off on different tangents. So by just doing that, it’s really it’s still my thoughts and views and opinions, but it’s helping me share them in a way that hopefully will land with more ease. But again, I steer away from things like scripts, because I know if I was to use a script, it would just read really and listen really unnaturally. So I think, like with all of these things, it’s about finding what works. Because I’ve got other clients who totally use scripts and their podcasts are amazing, and it really works for what they’re doing. And like you say, they probably spend more time sat down editing it Well, for me, that’s just not my style. I just prefer to kind of ad lib and talk talk like someone’s in the living room with me. So I guess with all of these things, I once had someone use the analogy that having an AI kind of assistant is like having a 16 year old intern. And as long as you approach any work they do that way, then it kind of makes sense. Then you’re not like, not like, why did they balls up the whole sales page I asked it to do, and instead using it almost like a sounding board, as you mentioned earlier. Yeah, I mean, I think what I find really exciting and an opportunity, and also why the work you do is so valuable and important. I’m just like word salading over here myself is because you referenced a few things there that you know the style as to which somebody wishes to communicate their ideas. How do they know that in the first place? How can they feel confidence around this is the approach I want to be taking with my AI. So earlier on, when you said we want to include a story and want to do this, want to do that, how does somebody know that that’s what they should even be asking AI for in the first place? And I imagine that’s where the community you’ve created is so important.

30:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that that with messaging, you really need to do the deep work like there’s no shortcuts when it comes to your personal brand, your mission, what you stand for, what you communicate, what your transformation is, and and those unique things that you bring to the table that nobody else can replicate. That deep work starts with all my clients if they haven’t got a, you know, a brand voice guide, if they haven’t done that deep work in their business, and lots of businesses haven’t, or they’ve done bits of it, but actually to have it, to sit down and to do that foundational work is is going to give you the ability to to stand out online, to be unique, and to and to give you confidence, I think, more than anything else, confidence in in who you are and how you communicate. And then it’s picking up those, those little skills in terms of writing a sales page, like, how do you structure it? What is the format you should follow? Because a lot of it is very set out. With copywriting, it’s proven like copywriting is like science meets voice, meets marketing, like it’s there’s just ways humans react to a visual visual inputs, word inputs. It’s the way our psychology works, and that’s that’s what you’re really working with when you’re writing, and those things you do need to, as a business owner, find out a little bit about that’s going to take some research. It’s going to take either a conversation with AI and then maybe running it through a human copywriter to check it, or it’s going to be joining a copywriters community and being able to access their brains and their knowledge in order to know exactly what it is you want to achieve with kind of the nuts and bolts of your Copy.

32:40

Yeah, no, that makes sense to me. And funnily enough, I love an analogy me. And I was thinking about my daughter and her swimming lessons, and how now when she swims, it looks like she’s literally cutting through. I don’t know it looks so effortless the way she swims, but it took learning the techniques to make that, to make it look effortless, to make it look easy. And of course, it feels a lot easier for her, because she knows how to breathe, she knows how to move. And I really think it’s the same, like you say with copywriting, there’s certain psychological elements that I notice when I use AI and I say, Can if I’m feeling lazy, I’m like, can you do this for me? Sometimes it’s bang on the money. Other times it totally misses sales psychology and the hooks and or it misses the bigger picture. So you could be creating loads of content all month where you’re only doing awareness content, you’re not doing any conversion content, or you’re doing conversion content, or it all sounds really samey, but there’s also what you were speaking about earlier in terms of kind of being really aware of who you are and bringing that to what you do. Of course, that just requires courage as well, right? It can feel quite nerve wracking, really, standing for what we believe in and also standing for what we don’t believe in. So I feel like there’s so many things, you know, that’s why I do see it as kind of off putting, as like learning swimming techniques. So it’s like, oh, it’s going to take time. It’s going to take effort. Some days will feel easier, some days will feel harder. But the businesses who put that time and energy in are the ones who appear to be like, swimming with ease right now. And I know, like, you know, Saturday morning, when it was International Women’s Day, and I was feeling a bit ranty, I let out, you know, shared a reel, and had really great engagement, really great reach, and I could do that with ease, but that’s because I’ve been doing this work for years now, and there are other businesses who probably would have spent a lot longer trying to come up. Trying to come up with a post like that, and it’s just, it just really, really pays to do this work, and so that’s why I’m so excited to have you as a guest on the show, because I do believe the future is a marriage of copywriting and AI. So I’m really excited that that’s what you’re bringing to your clients. If anyone’s listening and thinking, oh, goodness, okay, I really see the value in learning these skills so they can have that level of CEO discernment with their own messaging, which, like, I say, I’m not trying to, like, you know, bang your drama or anything, but I do believe the power that goes well beyond your website, your social media. It’s literally you will always. Be the voice piece for your business. Always, as the founder of your business, your words count more than anyone else’s, and people like Richard Branson are a really great example of someone who communicates so well that it’s really served. I mean, not something we want to be like Richard Branson by any means, but there’s so many entrepreneurs out there who are just, they’re just amazing PR people, and it’s really, it’s made them a lot of money over the years. So it’s a skill that is invaluable, that will serve you in any situation. So the best time to get started on these skills is not is now, as far as I’m concerned. But tell me a bit more about how people can work with you if they’re listening and thinking, oh my goodness, absolutely.

35:38

So there’s two ways you can work with me. There’s one way where you can kind of grapple with everything within the context of working with me, and that is proper Lesh, copy secrets, and you can hop onto my website and find more about that, but you walk alongside me. We go through all of this foundational these foundational principles, and you kind of you come away with a brand. Book, a brand voice guide that will allow you to be the CEO of all your messaging decisions. But on top of that, you’ll also write copy with me, so you can kind of start practicing and exercising those muscles in order to feel confident in writing your own copy, or if you are absolutely bogged down, and it is your decision to outsource because you haven’t got the time, not because you feel like you’re bad at it, then I can work with you and do a done for you where I will go through all these foundational principles. It’s a case of sitting down with me for a couple of hours, and then I put it all into a guide for you that then we’ll go through together so that you again, are just really solid in in what your business stands for, because people just rally around businesses that align with them. And I just think this whole AI chat GPT versus Claude is just so such a beautiful illustration of this. I mentioned it in my I actually posted it last week, didn’t I, because it’s really made people align with one form of AI or another, because you either don’t agree with open AI’s decisions to support the US government, and that’s massively made this huge exit chat GPT movement happen as everyone migrates over to Claude. And it’s because people really back the things they believe in, so true. And in your business, you do give people a reason to back you. You know you are giving them something. You’re offering that transformation. But beyond that, you’re also giving them a form of identity and something to align with. And that is so powerful.

37:43

That is so powerful. I mean, ultimately, every decision we make, every buying decision, well, there is a little bit of logic involved. It’s massively influenced by our emotions, isn’t it, and that’s the power of good copywriting. Is helping someone feel seen and understood and motivated and fully in trust of what that next step is. And I feel like this interview is like flowed like a beautiful piece of copywriting, where all the threads have tied together really neatly into the amazing work you do that CEO discernment to your writing so that it gets to truly connect, which has never been more important. As far as I’m concerned. You know, the opportunity online is phenomenal, which means we’re increasingly seeing more and more businesses popping up on the internet every single day. So being able to stand out, you know, particularly if you’re listening to this and you’ve been in, you know, exercising your expertise for years like it is not time to be a wallflower. It is time to make sure that people know you are not some kind of cowboy who just rocked up yesterday. You have, you’ve got your I don’t even know what my brain is sunny like words are escaping me, but you know you’ve, you’ve, you’ve got your experience and the reasons why people should trust you and so people should you know know about it. I wanted to ask you though, even though I feel like this is the cleanest way to wrap up the interview, is there anything I didn’t ask you today that you feel my listener needs to hear?

39:06

Oh, it is a juicy one. It is a juicy one. I think, I don’t think I’ve emphasized it very much, but I really just I want business owners to be confident in their writing and their messaging. And I think that confidence is such a key piece in in standing out online. And I think that, yeah, I just don’t think you should ever shy away from from your writing or from expressing yourself. I think we just live in such a beautiful era of being able to share exactly who we are, and finding the people that that rally to us and, and, yeah, to just grab that opportunity and and go for it. I love that invitation, because it’s so true. There’s a lot, particularly for women. I hate to say it, but there can be a lot of hesitation around visibility, and understandably, because nobody wants to be judged. Nobody wants to be disliked. I mean, I know we all told we shouldn’t care, but quite frankly, we do that email. I got the angry email definitely left me rattled for a whole evening. Had to go have a little salt bath and chill out. So it’s very but you know, ultimately, it is always grounding ourselves back in the truth and understanding that even the juiciest peach isn’t for everyone, and so it’s way more important, particularly when we want to have a profitable business to to be brave, to be courageous. So thank you for sharing that. I want to just add on to that, actually. So I read an article in all about the time Women of the Year, and one the founder of Girls Who Code, she said that there are far less women at the forefront of AI or running tech businesses, because women, her perspective was that women feel like using AI is cheating interesting, whereas men just go for it. And I thought that was really fascinating. Perspective is that actually, like, is that a barrier that we need to overcome, that using AI as a tool and kind of like that reframe about, I guess, how we, how we, how we go about addressing AI and using it in the future? I think you have to obviously hold it in balance. But I just thought that was a really interesting perspective, or interesting kind of observation to make, really, yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah. I don’t even that’s such an interesting perspective. I don’t even know, because there were so many different ideas flashing through my brain as to how and why that might be the case. But I guess the most important piece is to have an aware of awareness of that and decide what we want to do with it. Just even knowing that that’s the case. Is interesting, yeah. And I brought it up because of the whole bravery piece, right? Because, actually, I think that sometimes you can, you can fall back on on giving yourself excuses or feeling like you’re not being true to yourself because you’re leveraging something like AI, whereas, in actual fact, you can be true to yourself, write yourself an AI policy and make sure that within the context of your business, that you’re adhering to that, and that’s where you feel comfortable.

42:05

That’s it exactly, isn’t it? I Because, yeah, yeah, I’m going to be careful with what I say here, because I don’t want to generalize. But yeah, I totally agree. I do think that’s the solution. It’s just being clear on your principles, your policy, your priorities, and adhering to that while also showing a level of flexibility, because AI is inevitably evolving all the time, and so therefore how you relate to it will need to evolve alongside it. You could maybe have a little AI date every quarter and check in with yourself and check in with the updates and see if you’re still doing things optimally, or where things get to evolve or change. But thank you so so much for your time today. Beth, it’s always wonderful speaking with you, and I’ve really enjoyed deep, diving around AI and copywriting, because I’ve been feeling the conflict internally, and it’s been really great to kind of hear your perspective, for anyone who is listening and wants to discover you. Where can they find you?

42:57

Either on Instagram, that’s I hang out a lot, and just Bethann Robinson with an underscore at the end. All my websites, sign up my email list there, beautiful and all the links will be in the show notes, so you can go find Beth with ease over there. Thank you so much for your time today. I’ve loved, love talking with you.  Thank you, Polly. It’s been it’s been brilliant.

43:15

Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Recording it with the wonderful Beth Robinson. If you want to go connect with her, you can go find her over on Instagram or through her website. The links are in the show notes, so you can find her easily. And of course, if you enjoyed this episode, I would absolutely love it if you would share it with a business friend, or leave it a review or subscribe, all of those things help more people discover the show. And you know, allow me to continue indulging in these beautiful conversations. And if you’re not already connected, please come and over and say hi on Instagram. I’ll be in your ears next week with another solo episode recapping on a masterclass that was only recorded a couple of days ago, where I share more about the mini office system and how to make sales with more ease in 2026 I’ll be anywhere is then you.