00:00

Welcome to Make More Money Without Selling Your Soul. The podcast for bold entrepreneurs ready to simplify scale and reclaim their time. I’m Polly Lavarello, Evergreen scaling strategist and cushy business pioneer. Join me and my occasional guests as we explore the themes of wealth, selling and well-being, because building a business that works for you changes everything. Let’s dive in.

00:37

Hello and welcome back to the show. If your brain has been in overdrive lately, and let’s face it, whose hasn’t or is that just me? But yeah, if you’ve been looping, doubting, overthinking everything, this episode is for you. So pour yourself a cuppa and tune in. I’m chatting with the amazing Natasha de Grunwald, who I have known for years now, but more importantly, she’s a total powerhouse in the world of somatics and trauma healing. She’s been doing this work for over 30 years. She doesn’t look old enough to have been doing that, but she has and brings so much grounded no BS wisdom, we dive into why mindset work alone isn’t always enough, how getting back into your body helps you break old patterns, and what real somatic healing actually looks like beyond the BS we see on Instagram. Let’s get into it. Welcome to the show, Natasha. I’m so excited to have you here. We have been in and out of each other’s worlds now for several years now, and we’ve both been on quite the journey. But for anyone who’s new to you, Natasha, please introduce yourself to my listeners. Hi.

01:42

I am Natasha de Grunwald, and I have been working in the somatic healing and trauma world for about three decades. So I have a method called the trauma release method, and I take people on retreat. Those are kind of my, my big things. And I also work a lot with breath and the body. So yeah, in a nutshell, that’s me. I’m a published author. I live in Brighton, and I’m a single mom.

02:09

Amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing, yes, local. I mean, we need to have coffee soon. But anyway, let’s not get into that just yet. I would love to know because it’s very niche, and particularly, I think what’s interesting when you say three decades in the last five years, I feel like there’s a lot of talk around trauma, a lot of talk around the body and the wisdom that the body holds, and there’s an increasing awareness that there wasn’t five years ago or even a decade ago, like there’s a lot more awareness than there was, but three decades ago, you were ahead of that trend. What actually got you into that world?

02:46

Well, my own personal trauma got me into that world because I went searching for a way to feel happy, healthy, comfortable, regulated in my own body, having been physically and sexually abused by a boyfriend of mine when I was 14. So I actually started my own sort of personal healing journey when I was 14, and by the time I was 18, I was learning how to work with the body and the breath, and that kind of led me into working with other people who were coming usually through pain in the body. And so I started working with my hands through kind of touch therapy. But then, of course, once you touch the body in a therapeutic way, it opens up the kind of doorway to what’s actually going on underneath when there’s pain, because often pain is a physical representation of something else that is going on, which it definitely was for me, you know? So, yeah, I just, from the age of 18, I started working in that way. And there were there wasn’t the language for it then, so I wouldn’t have called it somatic. I didn’t even have a name for it. I just kind of did what I do, and it’s kind of helpful. Now it has a name, because people will recognize it, but yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t have a name for it back then. I just kind of did what, what felt like the right thing to do. I’m sort of deeply, viscerally intuitive, so I can kind of sense things about people and know how to work with them. And I think that also comes from having had trauma where you become highly attuned and highly sensitive, but I’ve kind of turned that into a gift that I bring to the world. Yeah? So it can be very painful thing to live with, but you’ve turned that into something that actually is powerful for you. Yeah? Oh my goodness, that’s quite the story and and also, that’s a real dedication to, to Samad. Let’s, let’s call it some to keep it simple, that’s a real dedication to that over three decades. What’s kept you, what’s kept your head in that game for three decades?

 04:54

Well, I think it’s seeing how, where I used to be. You know, I was, I had no. So like, zero confidence my you could see it in my posture. I would be stooped. I couldn’t speak like I could never have come and spoken like this on a podcast. I could never have been busy on Instagram, or thought that I could teach people to do what I do. I just had zero confidence in in myself. And then as I’ve worked on myself, and as I’ve sort of looked at my own journey and background, what led me into being in a relationship where I was with an abusive man, I mean, you know, I have to take ownership for the fact that there was a part of me that took part in that, right? I made choices. So the more I’ve kind of looked at my own journey, and the more I’ve built my confidence and built love for myself and belief in myself and found out what I’m passionate about, the more I’ve gone through that sort of time of trauma and stepped into a place where I’m like, really happy and joyful and clear and passionate and and I just know what I’m here for, but it was really, it was really doing that inner work that that made that possible. But also, I mean, you know me, I’m very sort of mischievous as well, so and playful, yeah. So also, like, I love to share that working on yourself doesn’t have to be grueling. It can be fun. Actually, through play, we learn so much. Just for an example, you know what it’s like? You have children, you see them playing, and a lot comes up. They get competitive, sibling rivalry, you know, all these things. There’s so much to learn in in play, and we forget about that as adults. We forget that actually we can have a lot of fun and learn a lot about ourselves and move through some of our limiting beliefs or ways that we behave or shadows or whatever it is, to come out the other side feeling like, Oh my God, I feel amazing. I feel empowered, you know. And that’s kind of what I love to do, that’s what I love to do. And I’m curious to know, because I’m aware there’ll be some listeners who might be relatively new to somatics and perhaps more aware of the kind of conventional methods that a lot of us aware of, like things like talk therapy, and I don’t know, all the mindset and self development books. What would you say to the person who’s only tried those kind of more well known methods that, say, or more conventional or traditional or well practiced, versus somatics, like, what? What bridge does it gap that the the others don’t well?

07:34

I mean, I think that often people are really living in a place of their minds are very busy. They’re trying to control everything. They are swirling round and round and round in their heads in a cycle that is quite difficult to get out of. Even with mindset work, even with meditation, it’s still very heady. And I know, you know, I’ve done a lot of meditation over the years, and a lot of that kind of mindset work, but something massive was missing, and that was the bringing together of all the pieces. Because, of course, we have a body that has experience. We have a we have the breath that holds trauma, and actually, every experience we’ve ever had, the breath is doing something. Your breath can be like a mirror as well to everything else. It shows you where you’re controlling. It shows you where you’re stuck. It shows you where you have trauma, and all the rest of it shows where you’re having pleasure, right as well. So, so we really by bringing the body into it, and I don’t believe in separating out the mind from the body, because, you know, they work beautifully together, but bringing the body into it just gives a sort of groundedness. It helps you come into presence in a way that working just just trying to sort of control or calm your mind is is very difficult, yeah, you know, it just, I don’t know, I think you look at children, they’re such amazing teachers. They move their body a lot. Yes, they play a lot. They use their imaginations and and kind of express themselves in lots of ways. Yeah, I think, really, using that, using because the thing that also gets misrepresented in, you know, somatics is, I mean somatic basically means of the body, yeah. But the thing, the thing that gets mis represented before we recognize a feeling in the body, there has been a thought. There’s been a thought that gives us a feeling, which gives us an emotion or a sensation, and that’s of the body. But there is actually a thought that precedes that, so you know, but it’s not even like we need to focus on the thought, because already that thought has moved very quickly. Quickly to the body, and then we have a feeling in the body, but recognizing that those two things actually work together is also the way that I work. And what creates a lot more efficacy in the somatic work than trying to just come to the body. And these days, you see people talking about somatics, and some of it is such a load of old car, don’t I get fucking swear on your

10:26

Yeah, you can swear. Go on. It’s very sort of tick tocky, but it’s not really rooted in something really true. It’s just kind of superficial somatic stuff. Like, yeah, there’s a lot of different flavors of somatics, right? Like, I think that’s one of the challenges. If someone is interested in somatic work, there’s such a huge variety. Like you say, if you’re looking on social media, there’s some somatic coaches I follow, and I’m like, oh, yeah, I totally get this. And others where I’m like, Whoa, okay, that’s not what I was expecting. And there’s arguments for some types of somatic work being very light touch and others being very deep. And it’s, it’s a whole, whole big, deep world that, yeah, to me, actually feels quite intimidating. I’ve worked with a somatic coach, and I found it like it just it changed everything, like I went to a conventional coach in 2019 and she highlighted one thing I remember like forever. She said to me, this was a normal coach, not somatic coach. She said to me, Polly, you’re really good at thinking your way out of emotions. And I’d never had anyone reflect this to me before. Since then, I’ve realized I’m most likely ADHD. So I think it’s also a very ADHD type tendency to have, but also us all dhds can be particularly guilty of being very in our heads. And, you know, having, I mean, there’s a whole interception thing where we don’t necessarily feel what’s going in our body, so we have to be ultra conscious about what’s going on. You know, we have to go that next level beyond to truly register what’s going on. Yeah, but I remember learning a little bit about somatics and reaching out to a somatic coach who was a friend, she was a peer in another group, and I just said to her, what book should I read on somatics? Because I’m really interested to learn more. And she laughed at me and said, Polly, this is the problem you’re always you’re trying to solve somatics with your head. You need to experience it, and that was the gateway to total change. So yeah, so yeah, so this is why I’m so excited to be having this conversation with you, because I think it’s such life changing work for me. I think one of the biggest prevailing things that I feel like you’ve spoken about in terms of the trauma we hold in our body was essentially what was missing for me in a lot of the decision making I was making in my business, and a lot of the things I was holding away from were feelings of like lack of safety in my body and jumping into fight or flight, spirals around the things that scared me, and just not being able to move forward logically in my head, knowing if I did this, I could or I would, but never actually taking the action.

 And somatics was the difference between thinking if I did this and actually being like, and I am safe to do this now,yeah, and I think, you know, a good somatic coach, and I teach people to coach somatically, will do something called titration, which is where you you kind of are guided into tapping into something that feels edgy, but it’s you’re just tapping into the surface layer of it, because then you give your body a sense of okay, that that was actually okay going that far, and then you come out of it again, and you kind of go wide, and your perspective comes back away from it. So again, you’re back in that space of like, okay, this is where I feel comfortable, and then you go back in again, and you may, may go a little bit further into it the next time or another time, and then you’re so it’s building capacity for what you can cope with, yes, and I think that’s been a big problem. And I’m not disregarding therapy at all, because obviously for some people, it is amazing, and there are incredible therapists out there, and there’s all sorts of different approaches. But what I love about somatics and titration is that slow approach to exploring what is there, and by allowing your nervous system to do that slowly touching upon something that has a bit of charge and might feel a bit difficult, but then coming away from it again, and then going back in, when there’s everything’s kind of settled down, you go back into it again, maybe a little bit more touch a bit more upon it, and then come out again. And by doing that each time, or maybe just staying with that difficult feeling or sensation that’s coming up just for a little bit more. And someone who is trained to do that will know how, how, like, they’ll be reading you, and they’ll be able to feel what is I’m also working with you. Collaborating with you to feel where that sort of edge is, that safe edge to come in and out, and each time there’s this, like building of resilience, and then there’s building the capacity for difficult things. Because life is difficult, we need to be able to be in difficult circumstances where we’re stressed, where there’s a lot going on, but actually have capacity to deal with it without us spiraling into a functional free space, or just fight or flight, or any of those other nervous system states. And so it’s a beautiful way of working, and it does create that safety. And you know, like you, I’ve been very unsafe and dissociated, like completely disconnected from my body. And that has been, you know, it has actually, it has a lot of layers to it as well. Yeah. So weirdly, dissociation has actually been coming up for me again recently on the tennis court, which is just like, wow, this which is why tennis for me is like a spiritual practice, because it teaches me so much. So I’m having to find a way on a tennis court to stay present, because I can feel myself dissociating. It’s so interesting. So these things are interesting. They come up in funny places. But, you know, I see them as like, Okay, this is my next level. 

16:15

Yeah, didn’t know. I didn’t know I dissociated anymore, but I do, and I love how you explain what it’s like to experience it. Because I worked with my somatic coach for 18 months, and I remember someone once said to me, what do you do with her? And sometimes there were certain exercises I could explain, but a lot of the time it felt very subtle, very gentle and very hard to kind of describe afterwards, like you say it was so gentle, but over time, it just made such a huge difference, like a full kind of, I don’t know, full body, I guess that’s what it is like. It’s a full body kind of like transformation, but from the inside out, yeah. And actually, I think it’s very precious, because I don’t think there are any other environments. What you referenced about kind of the word that came to mind for me is consent. It’s so consent based, and so safe and so gentle, and so many other environments you can put yourself in, even if you’re sat opposite a therapist, you can feel somewhat a projection from them, even if they don’t mean to or maybe it’s just my brain, my overthinking ADHD brain. But it’s very hard to be in a space where you truly felt held and safe and and actually calm enough to be slow and be with it. And I remember at times when I was going through the experience feeling like I didn’t really understand what was going on. And sometimes I couldn’t necessarily, you know, she’d say, What color is this? And I be like, in my head again, over thinking, God, am I going to say the right color? I don’t know. Is there a right color? But just being like, just relax. Don’t worry about not having the answer. Just just go along with it. And the more I did it, yeah, it just made everything around me. It was one of those bizarre things that it was very healthy for me. I stopped actually kind of counting measurable outcomes, or what the difference was, and instead, just kind of carried on through the world and would just see it in the difference as to how I could be with my children, or how I could handle difficult scenarios, and how just overall, I just started developing this layer of resiliency that hadn’t been there previously, how boundaries started to come in more effortlessly, and my ability to advocate for myself became easier. And none of these were taught skills, which in the past, previously, that’s what I would expect. You know, if you’re working with someone, they’re going to go, Well, next time you’re in this situation, do that. And what was so beautiful about this was it really felt like untapping a whole load of inner wisdom that just was cut off at the next neck previously.

18:45

And I think that’s the really important thing, isn’t it? Because it’s very much about autonomy. It’s very much about you and finding your own way. It’s not like a philosophy like Carl Jung or Yeah, or something. This is like your own it’s, it’s your own place. Yeah, and we’re just not taught to have that sort of exploration. You know? We’re so taught to have the outside world impact us all the time that, like you say, the interoception, so the feeling of your body from the inside out is something that is just not it’s not bought in, you know, or children often have it. No, I don’t want that. No, I don’t like that. No, you do like it, and you will have it. All those things that, you know, we’ve all said as parents, learn as children, take us away from that wisdom that is that’s inside us, and then we have to sort of find it again. Work is amazing for that. How can we be aligned when we’re not in our bodies? How can we know what we want when we’ve been told all our lives that we don’t know what we want, or that what we think? Or feel isn’t acceptable or too much or wrong, you know, so those kind of messages, they impact our system, and they go in and they become these kind of beliefs, but they also become like a felt sensation in your body where you start to disconnect from what’s real for you. Yeah, and it’s the somatic stuff that really is, it’s just so powerful. I mean, I teach psychotherapists, clinical psychologists. I’ve got a e nurses coming in to do my training, and loads of coaches and loads of people from corporate worlds, which is very exciting, because all these worlds are sort of merging, and people are realizing the importance of the body. And I think, wow, if we’re if people in all these different places are starting to understand that inner world being so important for us living healthy, happy, aligned lives, you know, then hopefully the world will at some point start being a better place. Yeah, yeah.

21:05

It makes so much sense to me, because we’re living in a world of distraction, where people are picking up their phones. I mean, like, I remove, remove the news app from my phone, because I was like, that is really rattling my nervous system. Soon as Trump came in, I was like, right news. I do not want notifications. This is just too much. But we do live in a world of distraction, a world of like, you need it, Amazon Prime, it the next day. You know, you’re feeling uncomfortable, have another cocktail. You know, there’s lots of kind of language around, you know, basically encouraging us to avoid being with discomfort, like discomfort seen as this awful thing that we should just steer away from. And so I can really see why there’s a heightened awareness of somatics now, because, like you say, it’s we’re kind of living at a tiny percentage of our potential in life and and love and connection with others where we’re not truly and if you can’t connect with yourself, what chance do you have with truly connecting with others? Yeah, you know, how much of you are they really seeing? If there’s a huge part of you that you’re shutting off. Now, I appreciate you’ve talked a bit about what the somatic process is like, but I imagine there might be some people listening, going, but what does it actually look like? Natasha, like the person who is somatically aware, who wants to kind of connect with their body? What does it look like? Are they waking up? They you know, you mentioned meditation and how that’s a heady practice. What is for the person who wants to be more connected with their body, let’s say, even on a basic level, before we kind of think about the things that you train coaches to support people with, what does it look like on a very low level? And then we can talk about it at the level that you support. You know that you train people in as well?

22:39

Yeah, sure. Well, I think the breath is one of the best somatic tools that you could possibly use. It’s right there under your nose, happening all the time, without you even needing to think about it. But if you actually bring your conscious awareness and notice your body breathing, it brings you into state of presence, so that in itself, just very simply. And, you know, luckily, this is becoming more and more widely known now, but just taking a few breaths can really just do a lot for your nervous system, and it can really just support your system in the present moment. So, you know, you’ve got, I don’t know, your 10 year old screaming at you because they want something. And you can feel that sort of like frustration or anger or annoyance or whatever it is surfacing, you know, we know, don’t? We just take a few breaths before you respond, yeah, yeah.

23:39

But you know what? Also on the flip side of that, my son last year started having he had two panic attacks at school, and it was heartbreaking. He was only eight years old, and it genuinely broke my heart, because the first panic attack I ever had was when I was 32 and I went through a series of no no. That was around the early 30s when I was leaving my husband. I stopped once I’d gotten away, but the stressful led to that, and that was very surprising to me, but when he had it, it was heartbreaking. And I just said to him like I was trying to give him tips, and nothing was people saying, well, just distract him. Tell him about Pokemon cards. We’ll do this, do that. And then I just thought I’d tell him what a panic attack was. And I said, Look, Carlo, what you need to do next time you feel a panic attack coming on, breathe through your nose. When you breathe through your nose, it will tell your body that you’re safe. Because I said a panic attack is where your breathing makes you feel you’re not safe. And anyway, I explained it all to him, and he came back from school two days later, and he said, Mom, today was really hard. And I said, Okay, but how were you? And he said, Well, I thought I was going to have a panic attack again. So I breathe through my nose, and it was fine. And I was like, it was like, it was fine, yeah, because my body was safe, and it was just so lovely, like, he’s not had one since. But the power of breath, right, not just for the parent, but educating children on that from a young age makes such a huge difference, and it’s such a simple philosophy. Isn’t. Such a simple principle, when you breathe through your nose, your body knows it’s safe. 

And I say that, as a horrible mouth breather, the nose has this incredible whole filtration system going on. And it’s people often, you know, if they’re mouth breathers, which is a stress response, right? Often, the first breath you ever took was a stressed breath. So then you are in a in a sort of pattern of breathing that way. But the body knows how to breathe through the nose, but we might have to retrain it, which, again, is something I teach on my on my course is how people can breathe in a healthy, functional way. But when we do start breathing through the nose, even if at first it might make you feel like you’re suffocating, because you’re used to getting this breath in through the mouth, it can feel hard to breathe through the nose, but once you start practicing it very quickly the body was like, oh yeah, this feels so much better, and your body starts to sort of recognize that sort of healthier way of breathing. So yeah, I think for anyone that’s like, Okay, what? What is a somatic practice being present with your breath and just noticing what your body feels like when you take some breaths is a very good way of coming into your body and also coming into presence. Because often, what’s happening with our busy minds is we’re thinking about what something has just happened, or something that’s about to we’re not actually present in this moment, and so the breath can bring us into this moment. It’s like, okay, let’s just take a few breaths here and just be very present. Another thing that I think is a really great practice that I’d be really happy to share with your listeners, because it’s so simple, and again, it’s about coming into sort of presence. Is using your eyes to just look at one thing and seeing if you can stay with that one thing a little bit longer than you normally would, because we’re often using the eyes to dart around in our busyness, looking at all these different things, and it’s no wonder our minds are like swirling with crazy thoughts, because we’ve got we’re looking at that and that, and our phones, this and that and the other so if we can just literally focus our gaze on one thing and just notice what it feels like To look at that thing. Notice what your body feels like when you are looking at that one thing for a period of time. It’s called orienting yourself.

27:30

I love that space. It’s important we emphasize when we say one thing, we don’t mean Netflix. I like doing that in nature. Sometimes I’ll be on a walk, and I’ll see a really beautiful flower or leaf, and I really like taking the time to observe the texture and the colors and the tones, and I quite regularly go out for walks in nature. And I just love seeing the seasons so clearly, which you notice more? Because you’re paying attention to these tiny details, and you see those tiny little shifts that no one else is seeing. And it’s, yeah, it’s very grounding exactly, because I think the thing that’s the thing that that is doing is slowing your system down. And, you know, often when there’s overwhelm and stress, disconnection, fight, flight, functional, free. So you’re functioning, but you’re actually frozen. You’re not feeling anything, the slowing things right down and just being with one thing. And it’s not always easy, especially if you’re like ADHD or something, because it’s everywhere very like we move fast and we feel like we get bored very quickly, right? So again, that is a kind of practice, and sometimes it’s good to do that practice with guidance as well, because the person working with you will be able to, again, help you titrate with it, yeah, yeah, but it’s still a good practice for us to have as a tool in our toolkit when we’re stressed, okay, how can I slow down? Slow down my breath, slow down my eyes. Slow down what I’m you know, just come into one thing, just for a few minutes, and then notice how that affects your system. So notice what happens with your heart rate. Notice how your shoulders drop, you know? Because, again, the beautiful thing about somatic work is the noticing what’s happening in your body. 

Yeah, you know what? Natasha, I love talking to you because I genuinely feel calmer crowded just from listening to you. And honestly, I’m taking more, like, I’m like, intentionally breathing through my nose right now, I’m feeling a million times calmer, more focused. It’s it’s really, really beautiful. And one of the questions that came to mind, you said you support psychotherapists and coaches with these skills. How do they how do they marry that with their current kind of career profession, like, what role does the somatics tool? That you teach them play in how they bring that into their existing work?

30:06

Yeah, well, it’s actually been a really good question that we’ve been talking about a lot in my within my training school, with people that have trained with me or are training with me now, because often there’s kind of like ethical boundaries that they have to be careful of like a psychotherapist might not be insured to touch someone you know physically through that wearing that hat. So then it’s like, okay, but now you’re learning trauma release method, and you’ve got this hat, and then it’s like, well, how do I bring them together? And you know, depending on what they’re trained in, will depend on what they can do insurance wise. But I think more and more what’s happening is the integration of things, which I think is very exciting, because I think that is going to be the future of healthcare. Actually. I think, you know, when we’ve got pediatric doctors coming in with dentists and coaches and, you know, therapists and everyone is, they have a toolkit, and they use what that person needs. I mean, that’s ultimately what we want, isn’t it? We want people who are very experienced. They’ve, you know, they’re very well trained, and they they give you what it is that you need. It’s not like a one size fits all thing for, you know, because that isn’t actually, that doesn’t actually work that well. You know, even, I think even like surgeons, will find, they open up the body and find, you know, all the organs on the opposite side of the body. I mean, I’ve seen that in a dissection lab, because that’s my other one of my hobbies is dissecting the body, and that’s how I’ve learned about the body in a really deep way, because I’ve explored inside it. So, you know, there’s all these surprises in the body. We’re not We’re not like it, we look like we are, and in a anatomy book, yeah, we know we’re very complex, aren’t we as human beings? So I think bringing things together and finding a way to create something that is, you know, like I’ve created my method, which is what I do, and then I encourage people to go and create the thing that they do with their experience and their knowledge and their wisdom, because there’ll be people out there that that is the thing they need, right? 

Yeah, so I think that’s the way that healthcare is going and all in a professional, qualified, you know, expert way, you know, because there’s a lot of charlatans out there as well who’ve literally done a breathwork training in two days, and are now holding Breathworks for 100 people and causing so much trauma, I cannot tell you, and it drives me absolutely crazy. Yeah, I know talk about it a lot to raise actually, because I know we touched on it earlier. I said that’s the challenge with something like somatics. You start to look into it, and like you say there are people out there doing things that are incredibly unsafe, how would somebody, aside from obviously going to you, because we know you’re fabulous, but how? What kind of red flags does someone need to look out for if they’re because, I mean, that’s the last one we want, right? We don’t want anyone listening to this. Maybe in the US going, you know what I’ve just seen, there’s breath work down the road. I’m going to give it a go now, because I’ve had this wonderful conversation, and I want to explore it, what red flags should they look out for? Or equally, what are the green flags that indicate that you’re going to be in a safe space and learning in a safe way, or experience a safe way? I think in terms of breath work, you want to look for who they trained with, and actually do a bit of background research into who they’ve done their training with and how long it was, because it should be, you should be looking at about 400 hours of training for breathwork. Also, if you go into a breathwork experience, there’s certain things they should be talking about in we call it a frame, yeah, so, you know, I will talk to my breathers for probably about 20 minutes to half an hour before we go into breathing together. And in that, I will cover all kinds of things, like the contraindications, so the things that are that you shouldn’t do and that are dangerous, and that includes like medication and heart disease, and, you know, bipolar and just all sorts of different sort of conditions. So kind of you, if you’re under the care of a doctor, they should give you a way of breathing that’s safe. 

They should give you different choices for your own body. They should talk to you about whether the facilitators will be using any kind of touch, because sometimes a breather who’s going through a big process might it might be really supportive to have their hand held or something, but that should be talked about, and consent should be asked for, and there should always be the the opportunity that even if you said yes, please, I do want you to pay. Your hands on me if I need it, that you can always say, No, I don’t now, you know, there’s always you can change your mind. There’s sort of lots of things that come into a frame so that people really know what is going to happen in that session, and therefore when, if and when it does come up, they’ll be like, Ah, she spoke about this earlier. That’s okay. She or this is normal. What I’m feeling is normal. But also, I mean, I run, you know, I sometimes breathe 100 people at a time. But these days, I’m not looking for them to have a big, cathartic experience. I want their nervous system to feel very cared for, and I so I encourage people to do gentle, nervous system friendly breathing, again, that’s something I teach on on my method. So when they’re sort of pushing for catharsis, I’d be dubious about that. These days, I don’t think we need to push the body into having a big experience. It might feel like we’ve had an amazing healing revelation, but I what I see is a lot of trauma resurfaces for that. And then if you’re not in a place where you’ve got a coach or a therapist or someone there to support you, then a lot of people are left feeling very dysregulated. Yes, and I have people contacting me from around the world all the time saying, I went to this breath work. This is how I’m feeling two weeks later. Is it normal? And I say, No, yeah, it’s not. And then I’ll be questioning, did that breathwork facilitator offer you ongoing support? Did they let you know that they were there? Because I again, I’m very careful to let people know you’ve got an anchor to me after the breathe. You know, this is where I am. Reach out if you need me. You know, there’s so many dodgy things happening the whole breath work field. Whilst it’s brilliant thing that people are connecting to their breath, I just say keep it really simple and slow. And anyone that’s pushing you to have a psychedelic experience, I’d just check it out before diving into that, because they can be really fun and amazing, but they can also bring up too much, too quick. Yeah, yeah, no, that will make total sense, amazing. Well, I hope people who are listening to this do go, give breath work a go, because it is amazing. And is there anything you want to share in how it is that you train up coaches? And as you mentioned, therapist, like a therapist, there was a list there. Wasn’t there. I can’t remember all of them, but is there any more you’d like to share on that? What that process looks like? You mentioned 400 hours. What does that look like in terms of months that they’re training up alongside you?

Is it months or yeah, my training is over a year. It’s online, and then we actually have a graduation in Marbella, because, yeah, it’s great. I take people away from their regular lives on retreat for four days, because, you know what it’s like when we’re away, we have an adventure. We’re in a new place. We have, like, a sort of sense of freedom and excitement and different landscape. And you can probably hear funny sounds in the background. I don’t know that’s a frog. You know, we kind of get to experience ourselves in a very different state to the one that we’re usually in, which is busy, too many responsibilities, stressed, anxious, overwhelmed. So my graduates come and have four days, and we do lots of nervous system kind of practices, breathing, dancing, do some coaching. We eat gorgeous food. We have amazing conversation. Swim in the pool, you know? So it’s yeah, I’m really into taking people away from their regular environments, both internally and externally, to find out really the potential that we have within us, you know? And I just don’t think that happens when we’re sitting in our kitchens, yeah, dealing with the day in, day out. So you host retreats as well, don’t you? I do? Yeah. How many of those do you do?

39:17

Yeah? Well, last year I did two. This year. I’m doing three. I’ve got one. I don’t know when this is going to be aired, but I’ve got one in November 2025 which is called inspiring leadership, which I’ve just finished running, and it was so I haven’t laughed so hard or so much in such a long time, it was just amazing and also really deep, but very fun. And, yeah, I’m really into getting people playing games, so I actually create quite a lot of games, like one of them is blindfolded. Right? And it was, it actually took me by surprise. I knew it was going to be good, but I didn’t realize it was going to reveal so much about people. I mean, we could have probably just played that one day and had the whole four days around that one game, because it revealed the way that people have behaved. It was around obstacles, like, how you deal with obstacles, yeah, in life. And it was so really revealing. It was just amazing. It took everyone, yeah. It was almost like, Okay, I’ve been dealing with obstacles in this same way since the day I was born. And it kind of revealed that. And then in that sort of revealing how we are, then you’re like, Okay, is that actually a healthy way for me to be dealing with obstacles? And obviously, when we have businesses, we’re coming up against obstacles a lot, whether that’s the people that we’re interacting with, or the feelings we’re having about whether we’re good enough or this or that. So it was very helpful. And in those four days, everyone was an entrepreneur with their own business, and so everyone was working on something, bringing something to life in their business they’d wanted to do for a really long time, but hadn’t. So I was very, sort of strict. I was like, this is, this is by the end of these four days, you’re going to have it. And so we played a lot of games, and they each day they were creating it, and by the end of the day, I kind of got them doing a Dragon’s Den where they pitched it to each other. Amazing. It was so brilliant. It was so fun, and I’m really helpful, and now they’re all, they’re all flying like the things that they’re doing off the retreat, they’re just doing it now there’s no sort of, there’s no kind of holding themselves back with all the excuses or whatever it is been, it’s been amazing. I’m I was probably the most proud of that with all my work that felt like just Yeah, I was very proud of what I managed to create and do with with my group. So I’m excited to do it again. Yeah. No, I love that. I think it ties in, funnily enough, similarly with the theme we were talking about earlier, about living in a world of distraction, and how we can also build habits around ourselves that facilitate those distractions. So to be in a new environment, to be given permission to focus on one thing entirely is its own holiday that’s just so and to be around others and all those pieces, it sounds amazing.

42:37

Yeah, it really is. It’s a it’s a real honor to do that kind of work with people, is how I feel about it. It lights me up. I get to do what I love, and then I get to see people just expanding in ways they didn’t know it was possible. And that is, that’s what I live for, I suppose.

42:53

Yeah. Well, you know what? Natasha, I just love watching you because you’ve pursued your passion, and you are so dedicated to what it is that you do, and there’s like that passion just is infectious, and it just ripples into everyone else, and that’s why you’re in the position where you can just do what you love, and all of those pieces, because your dedication, you know, it creates that trust in others, that They feel that they can dedicate themselves to you because they trust that you’re dedicated to what you’re doing. And I think in a world of particularly somatics, I see a lot of flaky type characters, flaking around, jumping between modalities, and you have been steadfast, like you say, now for over three decades. So if anyone’s listening and thinking, I would love to learn more about what Natasha does, learn about your retreats and learn about your facilitation training. How can they find you?

 43:45

Well, my website is my name, which is not the easiest, but it’s Natasha de Grunwald, and my Instagram is Natasha de Grunwald, so you can kind of Google me, and you’ll find me. I have a website. I’m quite active on Instagram and moving into LinkedIn a bit more and more now, but yeah, that’s where you’ll find me. Just My name is, is it fabulous? But yeah, thank you for saying that. It’s true. It is. It is such a passion I I feel like I see people’s potential, and I’m very good at helping them navigate their way to experiencing it for themselves as well, and I guess that’s what I did for myself. So I know it’s embodied. I know how to help people move into that space, and I love it when I see that happen. You know, I want my students to be way better than me. And I think that’s the other thing that often happens, is people who have these big teachers, who have these big egos about they are like some at the top of some hierarchy. I hate that. I want the people I work with to far exceed me, and I’d love to help them get there. But, you know, I think the world when it has people really, really connected to their body. Ease and what they really want to do in the world. And they’re clear, and they’ve moved through some stuff. I just think we’re going to create, oh, that’s my piece of helping create a better world. We need that right now.

45:13

Beautiful mission and vision to be wrapping this show up with every other links that Natasha just mentioned are all in the show notes, so you’ll be able to find her with absolute ease, and I encourage you to do so, because she’s the real deal. Thank you so much for your time today, Natasha.

45:26

Oh, thanks, Polly, what a lovely conversation. Thanks for having me on.

45:31

I don’t know about you, but I feel I can actually breathe after that conversation through the nose. Obviously, Natasha’s take on body based healing is so real, so needed, especially in a space where somatics can feel a bit, you know, surface level. All her links are in the show notes. Check her out if this resonated, and if you’re feeling it, share this episode with someone who needs it. Leave a quick review, or DM me what landed. I love to hear from my listeners until next time, breathe deep and be kind to your nervous system. And you know, keep it cushy.