00:00

Welcome to Make More Money without Selling Your Soul with me Polly Lavarello, evergreen marketing expert. This podcast is for you if you are an online entrepreneur who is looking to simplify their business to scale.  On this podcast you can expect to hear regular talk about wealth, about selling and about wellbeing. Because I believe these three core fundamental things are pivotal to your growth moving forward.

00:44

welcome to make more money without selling your soul with myself. Polly lavarello, Evergreen marketing expert and cushy business pioneer. And today, we have a guest on the show, Jo Hooper, also known as get wildly free. I’m so excited to have Jo on the show we met because she signed up to one of my mini programs, and the method she came up with inside that program was so good, I knew we needed to have a conversation about it. So here’s a little bit about Jo. So after sacrificing her life in the corporate world and having two breakdowns, Joe is on a mission to help you live a life you love. Jo’s me first method, yes, the method I was talking about gets burnt out business owners to stick it to the patriarchy, capitalism and ableism by putting themselves first, running a successful, sustainable business and having a bloody great life as a cushy business pioneer. You know? You know, when I heard about this, I was gonna love it, right? And so I knew I needed to invite Joe onto the podcast so we could have a conversation about what it means to put yourself first in business. I cannot wait for you to get your ears around this. Welcome to the show, Joe. Firstly, please tell my lovely listeners, who are you and what do you do? Who

02:01

am I and where do I come from? Hello, I’m Joe Hooper. I am a life and business coach, which feels like a sort of dodgy title, but basically, I help people figure out what they want in their lives and in their work and figure out how to get it. And I’ve developed this me first method of coaching, which is literally what it says on the tin, helping people figure out what they want and how to put themselves first and how to get

02:33

I love that. And when you say it feels like a dodgy title, please expand within the industry, we’re aware of what that can look like, but anyone outside of it might not be aware. So what do you mean when you say what may sound dodgy?

02:47

I just think that, well, coaching is an unregulated industry, and there are lots of dodgy coaching courses, and there are lots of dodgy coaches charging lots of money for not a lot of use. And so there is a part of me that feels not great about being a part of that industry, but then for kind of self preservation purposes, I don’t really look at what other people in my industry in inverted commas are doing. I focus on what I want to do and why I want to do it and how I want to do it. And so throughout running this business, I’ve taken it upon myself to regulate myself and to be clear about what other ethics, moral standards to which I adhere, and how people can see that within my business, and how they can what they can expect when they work with me. But yeah, I think, Oh, I’m a life and business coach. There’s a lot of not great people doing that, knowing how long

03:42

have you been the life business coach? For five and a half years.  I was basically, I was in communications for 10 years before that really climbing the corporate ladder hard and hit my goal of being a head of comms by the time I was 30. And then had two breakdowns in 18 months. And was like, Yes, I don’t think this is actually feasible for me to continue doing this. And so I engineered my own redundancy, and then the next week, set up my own business, amazing. And what drew you to being? I mean, have you always been a life and business coach, or at one stage, were you purely life or business, or what drew you to that profession?

04:19

So when I was really ill with my mental health, I realized that lots of organizations, including the one I worked for, wanted to support their people’s mental health, but just had no idea how, because the people in charge of those things had never experienced mental health issues before. And so I started my business working with other businesses to help them understand how they could support their people’s mental health. And then I basically realized that that was constantly re triggering myself, and I was starting to work with self employed people about how they can support their mental health within their business. And as I got into a better place with my mental health, and as my business grew and I started to do. More and different things, I realized that actually what I was doing was helping people run their business in the way they wanted to and be free to do so, free from all the bullshit rules that the world tells us we need to adhere to. So my business has morphed over the years, and I think it’s kind of disingenuous just to say I’m a business coach, because when I work with people, the things that we work on and talk about really are about the way that they see themselves, the way that they see their business, the way that they relate to their business, what role it plays in their understanding of their self worth, or self expression or self confidence. And so a lot of the work we do is not just about business strategy. It’s about the way that you see yourself and the way that you live your life and the way that you want to live your life. And so, yeah, I’ve kind of arrived at this place where I’m a life and business coach. Apparently,

05:54

I love this conversation, because it’s so true that, you know, and I see this all the time. Obviously, being a strategist, I can put great strategies in the hands of people, but seeing how they respond to it is entirely different. And you do see those who’ve probably got the most healthiest sense of self worth and the kind of resiliency to deal with failure, the resiliency to deal with uncertainty, the resiliency to be visible or to ask for things, or to receive things, like all of those things play an enormous role as to how well people succeed. And so while many people look for the golden ticket, the roadmap, the process, the blueprint, ultimately, all of those things can mean it’s like a chocolate teapot. If your tea is not gonna it looks great on the outside, but the moment you actually put yourself into it, if you’re that hot tea, it’s just gonna melt and do nothing. So I love that you share that, because it’s it’s so so true. The two are so inextricably linked. And obviously, one of the things that really excited me about yourself, and one of the reasons why I was really excited to have you on this podcast, is your me first method. Please tell us more about that.

07:00

Well, Hot Tip people. My me first method came to me while I was doing one of Polly’s programs. It’s I think, as I mentioned, like this evolution of my business and my work, I’ve always been about helping people put themselves first. I’ve just never been able to articulate that this clearly before. But really what the me first method is about is putting you first in every decision in your business. So if I’m looking at someone who is a freelancer and does loads of different work, it’s not really in packages. They’re bespoke quoting, what I see is someone putting their clients before themselves, because they’re saying the client can come to me and want anything, and I will mold myself to that. And what that means is they’re always going to be over giving, overworking, and the power dynamic is slightly off. And what that does for that person is perpetuate this idea that to do well in inverted commas in business, they have to put others first and they have to subordinate what they want and need to what other people want and need. And that’s a rule that’s been taught to us, particularly those of us socialized as women by society, that the epitome of being a good woman is to be selfless, to have no sense of self. And so that manifests in our businesses by us putting others first and shaping ourselves around them, which is bloody exhausting and isn’t sustainable. And you know, if you’re bespoke quoting every piece of work you can’t scale that, you’re slapping a ceiling on what you can earn. And so I want to help people figure out how to put themselves first, build a business that they actually enjoy, that doesn’t burn the heck out of them, which, in turn, gives them a great life.

08:46

I love that example. You know, you’re so right about the power dynamic, and I relate to it so heavily. Because when I first started out as an ads manager, I would do exactly that. Someone say, Oh, but I only want to do ads for, I don’t know, three months. So can I just get a three month? And I would be like, well, I honestly, I don’t think it’s a great idea. Ads take longer than that. Of course, we can have them working in three months, but, you know, really, they’re a long term strategy, and not something you just dip to in. But I would, I’d end up appeasing them, and then the whole dynamic would be off the entirety of that contract. That would be the one client I disliked working with the most. Well, the ones who jump in and go Senior Program, love it. Let me pay you in full. Let’s just jump in. Have also been the easiest, because they are all in all committed, and they’re not kind of questioning you and questioning your authority and your expertise, which ultimately, when someone’s expecting you to mold you yourself around them, they’re already essentially establishing themselves as the authority which they’re then going to resent you for later on, because they’re thinking, I want to trust you with this. So thank you so much for sharing that. Because I think that when someone hears the phrase me first, it can trigger all sorts of like uncomfortable feelings in us, right? Like that sense of you know, particularly if you’ve been, let’s say, burned by a COVID. Coach who very much came across as Me first, me first extent that they are not caring for their clients, not delivering on their promises. For the person who hears that phrase and thinks about that, what would you say to them?

10:13

So I think you can put yourself first and still be a caring person who is a good person in many years. But what I want us to think about is whose version of good are we trying to adhere to? If the version of good that we’re trying to adhere to is a patriarchal, capitalist, white supremacist, ableist version, well, it doesn’t that’s not going to benefit us. And I totally get that it can be confronting to be like, I’m putting myself first and buggy all. But I think what that feeling of being confronted highlights to me is that we need to examine why is it confronting to you? Is it confronting because you feel like it’s wrong to put yourself first? If so, that’s a rule that you’ve been taught, and we can sweep that to the side. Is it confronting because you think you putting yourself first is going to be to the detriment of other people? Let’s explore that a little bit more. What does that detriment look like, well, if it looks like someone having to compromise on what they’re looking for to meet with what you offer, then that’s not necessarily a detriment. That’s just coming together to meet in the middle, and we don’t have to shut on other people while we’re putting ourselves first. I

11:38

love that. I mean, obviously you’ve given the great example of somebody who kind of compromise. Of compromises on what their offering is, to meet somebody where they’re at. What are the other examples of where people are giving their power away in business, where they’re not adopting me first, or, if you prefer, you know, what does it look like to have a me first? Business? I want to explore all of it, give me a bit more about what it looks like when you’re not, and then tell me more about what it looks like when you are. Because I like to talk about the good stuff.

12:02

Arizona. Good stuff. So I guess if I think about what it looks like when you’re not, oh, let me count the ways. But basically, the majority of people come to me when they are wildly overworking. They probably haven’t thought about or don’t have, like, clear boundaries in place around the way that they work, who they work with, how their packages work, and so they’re constantly flexing to meet other people’s needs. And what I tend to find is that, like the underlying thing is in I believe that we’re not putting ourselves first when we’re designing our businesses and when we’re running our businesses. But how that manifests is that often people don’t have packages, and so they’re bespoke quoting, or they have packages, but they discount the price for that person, or they allow people to cross the boundaries of that package, for example, like a graphic designer or a copywriter or a social media manager who gives deadlines to their clients as to when they need to get feedback to them by the clients don’t meet those deadlines, then the business owner takes it on themselves to make up the time and overwork to meet the deadline that they set in the first place, to have the work done. So there’s like, big structural things, ie packages, pricing, boundaries, that are ways that we can put you first in your business. But then there’s the everyday decisions, like, how are you spending your time? Do you turn your laptop on and look at your emails? Is that how you want to spend your time? No, it’s how you think you should spend your time, or how you think you need to spend your time. But you don’t. You run your own business. You get to set the rules. You literally get to decide everything, everything.

13:43

I mean, all of this, because I feel like a lot of it comes back to not just boundaries, but also, I think underlying that self love, right? Because I think I remember early on, and this is so related. I mean, honestly, I’ve been on such a journey with this myself. Hence why? I mean, I said to you before the show that this really aligns with cushy business, which similarly, is about being unapologetic, about building a business that works for you and and, you know, I know earlier on, I knew about boundaries. There were things I had books on, things I’d like attend conversations around, but there were certain boundaries I would struggle to actually, kind of, you know, someone actually said to me, Paul, you know, boundaries isn’t a word. It’s an action. I would write in contracts certain boundaries, but like you say, when it came down to it, if it wasn’t happening, I ultimately wouldn’t adhere to them. And then, obviously, then feel resentful towards that client long term. And that also things I recognize about Facebook ads. I almost like. Left Facebook ads because I hated it, and then later on, I had to be honest with myself and recognize what I hated about it was exactly the same thing I’d bring into any direction I took on the other side, unless I resolved that kind of issue of essentially giving my power away all the time. So I really love what you said earlier on about how me first. Doesn’t mean and sod all the rest of you we. Means that ultimately it is about kind of maintaining that healthy power dynamic where you are self resourced, where you are working from a place of self love, and quite rightly, expecting people to meet you there, and when they are equally resourced, they won’t be triggered by that, right? But it’s only those who potentially are also over delivering, also in that state of not really honoring themselves, that will potentially be a bit triggered by the fact that you you are so I love that. Yeah,

15:33

can I just pick up on a couple of things you said? Yeah? Really, really interesting. Because I find the phrase self love really hard. Like, I find that a really hard concept. Similarly, as some people might find the idea of me first really hard. When you were talking, I was like, I think for me, the the like, baseline is self respect and allowing ourselves to say, this is what I do. This is how I do it. This is how much it is, and this is how it will be like when we work together. And if that works for you, beautiful, we’re meant to work together. If it doesn’t, that’s okay, and that comes with it. So many fears about turning away money if we don’t do exactly what the client wants, or all those fears. But at the end of the day, if we keep giving our power away, subordinating ourselves to others, we’re basically telling ourselves that we don’t matter, and that is a recipe for being fucking miserable, and that is not how I want to live my life, and it’s not how I want others to live their lives. Yeah, and just on what you talked about around boundaries, it is so hard to uphold boundaries. And I think anyone listening to this who’s like, yeah, I say that this is how I work, but if they don’t quite meet it, then I’ll just figure it out anyway, like there’s no guilt or shame to be had in in doing that, because it’s so hard to uphold boundaries for the exact same reason that it’s so hard to think I’m going to put myself first, because upholding a boundary with someone else is saying no, thank you. That’s not how we do things around here. The way we do things around here is the way I say so. And what that takes is confidence, trust and self respect in yourself to hold that and that’s really, really hard, because we’re constantly taught by the world that we shouldn’t have those things, that we should say yes to other people, that we should be pliant and kind and helpful and nurturing, and that saying no is the absolute opposite of all those things. So it’s really hard to uphold boundaries and to do this stuff. So don’t you be feeling bad about it?

17:37

I think you know, in my experience, it’s about a gradual approach to it, right? Like, I think, you know, if you kind of imagine, like, whole identity shift overnight, that’s really hard for everyone to achieve. So I think sometimes it’s almost writing a list of all the ways you’re giving your power away, and perhaps focusing on one to begin with, and thinking, or what can I do? Like? So for an example, one thing I used to be really bad at was my day finishes. I mean, technically, I don’t work on a Friday, but if someone shares something in my group in the business incubator, I will respond up until three, so like, I’m out and about and I see it. If they don’t hear from me, they know it’s because Fridays are off. But, you know, I enjoy the work I do. I don’t want to leave anyone hanging. But sometimes people will message at four or five o’clock or a one to one client might Voxer me late on a Friday, and so much of me would want to listen and then usually respond, and then they’d probably get back to me on Saturday, and the next thing I know, I’ve been talking to them all weekend. Now I love what I do, which can make that really like that can be troubling. Like, sometimes you’ll say, oh my god, I’m feeling so resentful. Sometimes it’s the other way around. It’s that you genuinely just like hearing from your clients and wanting to talk to them, which is fine and everything, but again, it creates a weird power dynamic where you kind of give that power away, right? And you do that. And so I remember, like a mentor of mine actually, just saying to me, can you just be with the discomfort of, yeah, waiting over the weekend, just just see what happens. Just be with that discomfort. And I remember, like, literally, the next day, on the Friday, getting the Voxer, seeing it, and genuinely viscerally, my stomach was in knots. I was like, I’m not even opening it. This feels really ah, and, you know, and I left it to the Monday, and nothing happened. Like, the client was fine. The client was like, I know I’m messaging on a Friday. And I think even listened to it and said, Oh, I know I’m messaging on a Friday, so I’m not expecting to hear from you. And I was like, ah. And then after that, it was so much easier. After that first visceral reaction, I then started getting better at it. So I think it’s little things like that that are a reminder to me. And by the way, this was only like a year ago. This wasn’t like years ago, like there are still areas like I’m constantly chipping away at, and I think it’s a journey for all of us. So I love that you’re speaking to this, because I just think, yeah, too many of us are giving our power away, and unfortunately, it’s very much like it’s something we see far more in women, right, than we see in men. Exactly.

19:54

I use this phrase about myself. If I give myself an inch, I’ll take a mile if I start. Doing a little thing in the evening, or because I’m excited about it, I’ll find myself working every evening and every weekend, because I just know that about myself from my past experience of my corporate life and something I ask clients and ask of myself all the time is like, Is this how you want to live your life? Yes, at the end of the day, do you want to be working on a Friday night and over the weekend? Yes, you love what you do. Yes, you’re great at what you do. Yes, you want to give people a great experience. Is that how you want to live your life, though? Because I’m pretty sure the answer is no.

20:34

And so if I think that’s the whole thing, I think, you know, yeah, that really resonates. Because the challenge, obviously, with those unhealthy patterns is that, you know, that particular weekend, for example, I think the last time I did it, my kids were driving me a bit insane. It was I could say to my husband, I just got to go answer this message, and so I could go hide in the bedroom, hide away from them, talk to an adult that was actually interesting for 10 minutes, not talking about Pokemon or Nintendo, and actually have an adult conversation. So it was really rewarding in that moment. But then there’ll come the times where I’m on a lovely breakaway with my husband and a lovely Shepherd heart in the countryside going for a long walk. Oh God, my box is going again. So it’s like you say, it’s reminding yourself that maybe in that moment it feels good. Maybe in that moment your husband’s watching, or your partner or a friend or, you know, maybe there’s football on TV or something, or it’s elections that you want to ignore it so you work to not think about it. But ultimately, you know, in those moments, if we can find nicer, more enjoyable things to do exactly, it totally makes sense. It’s sustainability piece, isn’t it?

21:34

Yeah. And it comes back to the again, not to bang the same old drum, but that kind of is my job. It comes back to putting yourself first. Like, if the only way you can get respite from those difficult situations is by doing something for someone else, yeah, that ain’t good. Like, no, should be able to give ourselves respite for ourselves not not be able to subconsciously justify it because it’s I can and should do it because it’s for somebody else. So, yeah, go and, like, sit in a cupboard and have a biscuit, have a bath, read a book. You know, any of those things scream into the abyss outside, anything, whatever you need.

22:17

But I love talking about this, because I do think it’s important for anyone listening who’s like on this journey, whether they’re really early on, or whether they kind of feel more established, no to kind of talk about the fact that I don’t feel like it’s a destination we ever reach, but it’s almost like a kind of, it’s like, it’s like a new lens on life, right? A new way to kind of, I love what you just shared then about, you know, if what you’re in is uncomfortable, and your way of distracting yourself is work. Maybe that’s a moment to reassess. Is there another way you can give yourself something back that it’s not like, Oh, I’m suffering. Well, let’s do another type of suffering, which is slightly different to the one I’m currently in, rather than recognizing, you know, it’s been like people who only, and I’ve been guilty of this in the past, only pick up self development books because it’s like, I can read, but I better still be learning some. Be learning something, otherwise this is wasted time or wasted energy.

23:06

And what that is is that’s capitalism. That’s saying your time must be always used productively, for productivity. I must read this book so I can get better at my job, so I can make more money, so I can etc, and getting better at your jobs, that you can make more money, is amazing. It helps you live the life that you want. But if you’re doing that action, if you’re taking that time because you feel you should be productive, then, like, that’s just a rule you don’t have to live by. Basically, if that’s what you genuinely choose to do. And I would get people to, like, dig underneath why they’re doing it, to, like, actively decide if that is something that they genuinely want to do. You go Glen Coco, but if you just want to read like Chiclet, that’s fine too. It doesn’t have to always be improving our productivity or our worth or our value, we can just, you know, sit and stare into space. Everyone,

24:06

I imagine working with you must unlock so much, right? All this kind of the stories we tell ourselves, the kind of conditioning we’ve experienced through growing up, through being at school, through even the relationships we find ourselves in, which often mirror the kind of situations we’ve had in the past and the choices we make. And there it is amazing, becoming self employed and having your own business, because it is a gigantic mirror to who you are.

24:36

Yes, it’s so hard, like it’s people tell me that working with me is like work therapy, and I’m very careful about and we have very open conversations about, you know, the work that we do and some of the things that we uncover may be best discussed with a therapist or a counselor, or because, you know, there might be things that come up that are deeply held beliefs. About your sense of self, and it’s not safe for us to explore those together, and you might want to take them into therapy, but yeah, going self employed is really bloody hard, because it’s not just that it’s all on you, but to be able to hold the fact that it’s all on you, you have to have self trust and self acceptance and self motivation. And whenever anyone asks me, What like my challenge is in my business, it is always my own brain. It is always me, because I can figure out how to do stuff, or I can work with someone to help me figure out how to do stuff, but no one else can make me believe in myself, that has to be me, and that I find, like holding the vision, holding myself, I find the hardest thing, and it’s so confronting all the time. Yeah,

25:54

yeah. Oh, well, I’ve loved this whole conversation, because I just think there’s so many people who need the me first method, because, like you say, we can have all the kind of guidance we could possibly need, but ultimately, it’s ourselves that we’ll get in. You know, what’s the thing standing in the way of your own success? You, I’m afraid, always such a horrible thing to think about. But having that self awareness and then having that support to work through those pieces is really powerful, which leads me really nicely onto the fact, well, the question as to if someone is listening to this and thinking this sounds exactly what I need right now, where and how do they find you? How can they work with you? Please share all thanks.

26:36

So I’m get wildly free everywhere, because that’s what I want to help people do. So get wildly free on Instagram, or get wildly free.co.uk on the on the interweb. And I work with a maximum of eight one to one clients at time. So come and chat to me about coaching, mentoring one to one. And then I have an ongoing thing called the me first month, which is basically a 31 day audio series where I give you a little small, simple way to put yourself first every day for a month. So if you need a little boost each day, come check that.

27:14

I love that. And I personally get a lot from following your Instagram for all the kind of rural life and animals. Me as a city girl misses that on and you know, it’s just like having a nice hot cup of tea, consuming or your content. It’s always really nurturing and supportive and lovely. So yes, do go over and check Joe out. Thank you so much for your time today.

27:35

Thanks for having me.

27:39

Well, I loved that conversation with Joe talking all things me first, such a valuable conversation. It’s so important to recognize putting yourself first or having a cushy business aren’t selfish. Things aren’t narcissistic. Things aren’t things that damage other people and ultimately allow you to live your most expansive, fulfilling life, where you really get to role model for others, what they get to claim for themselves, too. Anyway, I will be back next week talking to you about the rinse and repeat marketing strategies that my business uses to generate everyday sales. I cannot wait to share this episode with you. This is the most potent thing for you to be listening to this time of year as you gear up for your best, biggest, brightest, 2025 I’ll be in yours then. And as always, if you found today’s episode helpful, please do share it or give it a review. It really helps my episode and my podcast reach as many ears as possible, which is so important. Thank you for your help and support and love. As always, I’ll be in your ears next week.