00:00

Welcome to Make More Money without Selling Your Soul with me Polly Lavarello, evergreen marketing expert. This podcast is for you if you are an online entrepreneur who is looking to simplify their business to scale.  On this podcast you can expect to hear regular talk about wealth, about selling and about wellbeing. Because I believe these three core fundamental things are pivotal to your growth moving forward.

00:43

Hello, and welcome to make more money without selling your soul with myself Polly Lavarello, Evergreen marketing expert and cushy business pioneer. And today I’m so excited to have Tamu Thomas on the podcast as our guest. Tamu is a transformational life coach and former social worker specialising in helping women achieve work life harmony by aligning their nervous system for holistic well-being. Her book, Women Who Work Too Much: Break Free from Toxic Productivity and Find Your Joy, offers groundbreaking insights to help women liberate themselves from the systemic pressures that create an environment where women over function to survive workplace stress and the unequal burden of emotional and domestic responsibilities. With her social work background Tamu deeply understands the systemic issues that contribute to workplace stress and the unequal distribution of emotional labour.

Recognised as a thought leader, Tamu has been featured in notable publications such as Vogue and Forbes and engages a wide audience through her Instagram and podcast. Her book celebrated by Emma Gannon and Kelechi Okafor provides practical and empowering guidance for women. Tamu’s unique approach, rooted in somatic coaching and Polyvagal informed practice, empowers women to reconnect with their core selves, establish healthy boundaries, and build self-trust. Her work is particularly resonant in addressing the unique challenges faced by women of the global majority under what she describes as, “the trinity of oppression” – patriarchy, white supremacy and capitalism.

In Tamu’s words, “We don’t need more self improvement, we need systemic change”. Her insights are essential for anyone seeking fulfilment, meaningful connection and joy in today’s fast-paced world.

And today’s conversation is just going to be so thought provoking. If you are an online business owner, if you’ve ever been a single parent, if you’ve ever dabbled with burnout, whether you’ve been burnt out, or been borderline burnt out, or whether you’re just somebody who lives with chronic stress, which so many of us do without even necessarily acknowledging it. I’m so excited for you to listen to this conversation with Tom who consumed so much of Tamu’s content. And still, there were real aha moments, even for myself talking to her today. She is incredible. And I’m so excited for her book that’s coming out really soon, you’re gonna learn more about it towards the end of today’s conversation. But if you are interested in learning more about Tamu’s incredible book that’s launching in two weeks, do check out the show notes. And without further ado, I’ll let you enjoy this juicy conversation. Welcome Tamu to make more money without selling your soul, you couldn’t be a better guest, considering the title of your book that’s coming up very soon.

03:24

Indeed, indeed. Thank you for having me. I’m very happy to be here. And I’m sure we’re going to have like lots of things in common as we have our conversation. Yeah, no. 100%. And one of the reasons why I’m super duper excited to be speaking with you is obviously the subjects Well, actually, before we get into this, actually, the subject of your book is burnout, but particularly in relation to women. Do you mind sharing a bit more? Because if anyone who’s listening is coming out what and a couple of weeks, right?

03:53

Yes, yes, it is. It comes out I’m just gonna I wasn’t I wasn’t that prepared, who she is Women Who Work Too Much: Break Free from Toxic Productivity and Find Your Joy.  And what I would say is, burnout is a big feature within the book. But it’s not a book about burnout ring. Well, it’s a book about how the conditioning we experience in the systems we live in, create environments where women are left with no choice but to over function, and how this over functioning leads to burnout. So what I talk about a lot in the book, is the way our ordinary everyday ways of living because of our conditioning, sends our body sends our nervous systems, signs of danger. And we have been taught that the way we get out of that perceived sense of danger, which is not conscious, it’s very unconscious. It’s very embodied, but we’re taught the way we get out of those states is to work even harder is to be more efficient, to be more productive to make more money, and that is not providing the solution. You know, when I know there are many women that operate in the sector, we work in the coaching, industry consultancy, whatever however you describe it, who are making, you know, they’re making the money, but they don’t feel safe to enjoy the fruits of their labour, because they’re constantly on to the next on to the next. And the reason I say that is because when we talk about burnout as a complete sentence, there’s a tendency for us to think it’s because I need to change something because I need to do something differently. It’s not as simple as you personally needing to change something the system needs to change so that we are all able to work in a manner that is much more humane than what has been normalised.

05:55

Yeah, okay. And I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here, because I love to do that sometimes. But how does it impact women in particular?  It impacts  women in particular, because we live in a patriarchal society. So from the jump, men, heterosexual, straight, white, able bodied middle class, white men are held up as the standard. And we have been conditioned to live up to that standard. Younger generations are much more active in standing against that and saying, no, we want to do something differently. But I’m Gen X or Zenial, which one it depends on which sites I look at. But Gen X, millennials, were certainly brought up in environments where it was about being a girl boss, we were brought up with ladette culture. So we were brought up in ways that said, in order for you to be successful, you have to play down anything that is feminine, womanly. We are cyclical, like we go through I saw, I heard somebody describe it as we go through an entire year’s worth of seasons in one month. Men don’t do that. We are cyclical, our energy fluctuates along with our hormones. But what we’ve been taught is in order to be successful, we have to reduce and minimise and ignore or even shame that stuff, and operate in the same way as men do. If you look at the word consistency, it means it means doing the same thing in exactly the same way every day, not progressing. But doing the same thing exactly the same way every day. No human being is designed like that women are certainly not designed like that. That’s number one. And leading on from that. We’re taught that when we honour our rhythms and our cycles, we don’t want it enough. We’re not ambitious enough. We don’t want to grow enough. We are not organised, we’ve got time management difficulties when we haven’t invariably, women who are in heterosexual relationships. And then if you add the next layer of having children, we are often not more than often we are usually taking care of all of the care responsibilities, the domestic and the emotional responsibilities within our household. And on top of that we’re expected to work as if we don’t have those duties. Again, why? Because we’re held up to the same standards of men but not recognising that we don’t have the infrastructure and support in place so that we’re not spreading ourselves thin, and doing absolutely everything. There are so many things that are stacked up against us. And because we are peddled this myth that women are maternal and natural carers and men are not that additional, or taking on the emotional domestic and care labour also takes place within the workplace. I can’t remember the exact link. I think it was some research by Samsung, that talks about women far more often than men in the workplace, being asked to take minutes in meetings, even if they were in a senior role. Things like women, people automatically assuming that the woman in addition to the work she’s doing, will organise getting the birthday card and the cake for whoever’s birthday is in the office or so and so’s going on maternity leave assuming that a woman will take on the role for organising like the office, baby shower.

So we’ve got so many things that are stacked up against us. And I actually say against us, because there’s a total lack of support for the role that has been created for us under patriarchy. That’s why it impacts women specifically. And then if you add on top of that, the intersections of womanhood and race or womanhood and disability or womanhood, embrace and disability, that adds a whole nother layer. So in those circumstances, is whether you are a European looking woman or a woman of colour, we are facing so much judgement, prejudice discrimination before we’ve even left our house. And although we may not be aware of that, consciously, our bodies are a beautiful, sophisticated sensory system that is constantly scanning the world for signs of danger and safety. And we are far more attuned to signs of danger. Because in our evolution, that’s what kept us safe, more than looking for signs of safety. So even if we’re not consciously aware of it, subconsciously, and with our bodies, we’re constantly resetting and seeing that danger all over the place. So we’ve got a whole lot more to overcome as women, just to be able to stand up in our roles, whether you’re employed or self employed.

10:57

Oh my gosh, this book sounds like its own revolution. And I’m so so so excited for it. And what I find really fascinating listening to everything you’re saying, because I always like to kind of think about what a listener may be thinking of the stage. And I know I once thought all you need to do to get away from that is to get out of the workplace because I was undiagnosed neurodivergent years ago, and I remember finding the bright lights in the office really overwhelming. I had really sexist, horrible comments from a boss at one point. You know, I remember hiding tampons up my sleeve to go to the bathroom trying to hide the fact I was on my cycle, all these things. And when I became a girl boss, I say in a vertical hours, yes, I thought that would be me being my own boss. And actually, I bought so much of that conditioning with me at the very beginning and burnt myself out within less than 18 months of launching my business. I mean, why do you think we as women do that?

11:52

Because we’re told that we’ve got to go at high speed all the time. We live in a system that is framed by capitalism, and capitalism is about growth for growth’s sake, not stopping, continuously going. So in the industrial revolution, we created machines to make our work lives easier. And instead of allowing it to make our work lives easier, we then started to whether it was consciously or unconsciously compare ourselves to the machines, or the factory owners would compare our speed to the speed of the machines, and would want us to speed up with the machines rather than the machines being able to do what we can’t. So the way we judge ourselves, and our expectations of ourselves, are very mechanical. Rather than honouring the fact that we are cyclical, regardless of your gender, and the hormones you’ve got doing what they do within your body. So we go in with this expectation, that or an unconscious agreement that we’ve got to go full speed all the time, we would never drive our cars, pedal to the metal full speed all the time, we just wouldn’t do that we would burn our engines out, we know that when we are going on a long journey, we are going like I like going to St Leonard’s on sea. It’s one of my favourite places in the UK. I never ever drive with my pedal right down to the floor, accelerating at the top of what I can drive all the way to St Leonard’s on sea from London, it would cause an accident, it would wear out my car really quickly. But we do that to ourselves. I can’t remember where I saw this, I must find the link, I’ve got it somewhere in all the links. ADHD person here, I love a bit of research, especially when I don’t need to do it. And I found some stats, but there was some positive psychology research that was done that showed we operate at our optimum capacity when we are at around 80% of our physical and mental capacity. So whatever our own individual 80% is, that’s when we’re at our optimal. But everything around us tells us 100% 110% Well, if you’re going at 100%, you’ve got nothing left. There’s not anywhere for you to go. So when you are putting the work in and you’re getting things started, fine, crank it up and go up to that 100% Because we need that catalyst to get going. But we can’t operate there. Because we’re wearing ourselves out. What we need to understand is that we need stress as human beings, right? We actually need it. But healthy stress for us to operate in that level of fight or flight constantly is unsustainable. Now, when you’re in your 20s, which is proper Girlboss time, like in your 20s, early 30s. You have got the energy to do that. But you’re borrowing energy from your future.

15:05

Get to my true when I was gonna die I had IVs I had migraines, I was coming down with every sickness my children had. And back then I was a single mom. I mean, it was, that was really everything you’ve been sharing. This reminds me of like, oh my god, I was a single mom, I was trying to cook all the meals, collect them from the nursery, run it like me be successful within my career. I mean, I was spinning so many plates. And then later on when I discovered that my kids had additional needs, and not only did they have additional needs, but I had additional needs to in terms of undiagnosed I suspect ADHD and autism, like the combination of the perfectionism from the autism part of me, which is like, I must do everything. And I must do it perfectly combined with the ADHD intensity and desire to learn, like you say, all the links, learn all the things like my brain was constantly on and I remember the first coach I ever worked with kind of said, she said to me, you are intellectualising your well being. Because I was like, I’m reading all the books, I’m listening to all the podcasts. I’m like buying, like all the kind of I don’t know, well being supplements and stuff. And I was convincing myself that I was looking after myself, I would be the first person to advise someone if they came my way. And they said, Oh, I’m not feeling well. Or do you drink a pint of water when you wake up? And do you get some sunlight? And I’ve been saying all the things, but I wouldn’t be adhering to them myself. There was a huge, like, I divorced my body for my head and everything was operating up here. Yeah, yeah.

16:24

And when you do that, like, listen, I know that one very well. That was my MO toxic productivity was my drug of choice. Why do we take drugs? Why do people have addictions, they’re using their addiction to avoid something, they’re using their addiction to cope with something that was my coping strategy for not having a clue what my body was communicating to me. And considering my body’s calls for me to slow down to take better care of myself, as wanting to hold me back as a hindrance as something that wasn’t going to help me to get where I want to go. And you can do that. Like you can do that. You get a you make success with that. I remember that somebody sent me a link earlier on today about some woman who had a seven figure course creation or something like that business. And then she looked it off and took a year away from being online because she was burnt out. The thing about burnout is, it’s a very seductive drug. Because you get results, you get quick success or quick failure, you get something tangible, very quickly. But it’s not sustainable. And very rarely does it provide you with what you need to have that long term, well being and work life harmony, the way it is structured, and the way we operate, is that we organise our entire lives around work. So we end up living to work. That’s why especially in the heyday, everybody was on a bloody laptop on a beach talking about how great it was, because they were in this beautiful paradise. And they were bloody creating content and serving clients whilst they were there. No, I want to be on that beach in my bikini, frolicking doing cartwheels drinking coconut from coconuts, like and all of that kind of stuff.

But it’s not our fault. Like in my book, chapter one. The first sentence is is not your fault. Most of us started school when we were four years old. So you come from an environment where you’re playing all day, whether it was home with your caregivers, or in a nursery setting, preschool, you’re paying all day you have a break for lunch, you have a break for snacks, you can go off to the toilet whenever you feel like it. When Little Sarah goes off to the toilet, and she does it all by herself and she washes her hands, she gets praised for it. Then a few months later, Little Sarah goes to school, she puts her hand up and says she needs to go to the toilet. The first thing the teacher says is can you hold it. Now whilst I’m not saying children should just go to the toilet whenever they feel like it? One minute you’re praised for understanding what your needs are and meeting them. But next, you’re in an environment where you’re taught to suppress your needs, because they’re getting in the way of you being productive. We by virtue of the way school is designed, we are taught that most of our waking day should be spent sitting still learning, working really hard. Getting the results somebody else says you should get in the way somebody else says you’re supposed to get them. And if you can’t get those results in the way that person says you’re supposed to get them, then you’re you’re naughty, you’re not paying attention, and all of these other kinds of things. So we learn very quickly to suppress who we are and organise our entire existence around being productive. And then we transfer that into the workplace. And because we’ve had that conditioning so deeply, we can automatically transfer that into having your own business Yes. But again, I want to emphasise that is by design, the education system as we know, it was designed to support the Industrial Revolution, and get people out of subsistence agriculture, working as a family, etc, into being conditioned to go to the same place day in, day out, repeat the same tasks, day in, day out, get a little bit of money and make a lot of money for somebody else get like temporary praise every time you do something that’s in service of that somebody else. And then that’s how we’ve been conditioned. So even the perfectionism you talk about, whilst There absolutely are those tendencies with people who are on the autistic spectrum, we’re also conditioned to live up to a standard of perfection, knowing full well, that nothing in nature is perfect. No one will ever be perfect, but it’s very alluring. So we’ll constantly be chasing that, without taking the time to slow down and recognise that perfect doesn’t exist. me chasing after perfect is not actually bringing me joy. It’s not bringing me any sense of peace or well being, I’m just like a puppy. On to the next. Whereas if we can slow down and look at the perfection of the imperfection that makes the world go round that makes us who we are, and gives us a sense of joy and fulfilment. Half of us won’t have the goals we have currently, if we were actually attuned to who we are, and what we need to feel satisfied. Instead of satisfaction, we chase this arbitrary goal of success. And the success hardly ever feel satisfying, because it’s not our own measure.

21:47

Hmm, I mean, I’d love to dive into this more, because I remember, when I was borderline, I was a borderline better, I was burnt out, I got really burnt out. And but I remember at the same time, feeling almost allergic to the phrase slowing down. I remember just thinking that’s what other people do. I want to be successful. I know I’ve got me, I wish I had more. I wanted to multiply myself and I just saw world domination was imminent. I mean, there was pressures as well, I was a single mom, I wanted to get my myself away from the situation. So there was that sense of getting my foot on the pedal, and I’ll get there sooner. Now, obviously, anyone who’s listened to my podcasts, well knows that’s not my reality now, but I know that the people who are who need to hear this the most may also be similarly feeling that sense of fear around slowing down. Because, you know, I know particularly for me, my whole life was a life of never really trusting I could slow down it was one of good girl conditioning, wanting to please others. Did I answer that email fast enough? Did I you know, look appropriate or behave appropriately at that meeting? Did I say the right thing? You know, did I should I put myself or should I stand myself? And so there was so all the overthinking or the exhaustion. And I think there’s that association between slowing down and therefore not being as successful. And I know you just mentioned how success what is success? Like I remember the first time I hit my like, multi six work, no, sorry, multi five figure month or 25 candidates. And being like, I remember messaging my mentor, who then was a somatic mental going, Why do I feel different? Why doesn’t this feel good? And that was my first eye opening moment where I was like, okay, like you said, success, we can think it’s something but actually success isn’t a number, right? It’s not something external, it is how we feel in ourselves. And if we neglect ourselves the entire journey, then it doesn’t matter what the outcome is on the other side, because you’re not going to be able to actually receive it right? Because there’s nothing to receive. But yeah, I’d love to explore more like, you know, for anyone who’s listening who’s like, oh my god, I’m so on board with everything. You’re saying. You’ve really already created some light bulb moments for them, where they’re like, Oh, my God, yes, I’m pushing myself too hard, whether they’re working for themselves, or whether they’re still in a corporate environment, they’re recognising everything you’re saying to be true. But what does it look like on the other side, when you’re not putting your foot down on the gas?

24:01

Well, I’d like to go back to something. You talked about being a single parent, I’m a single parent. And we have to recognise there’s a season for everything. A lot of my burnout was I need to be able to provide I need to be able to do this as well as all the other things I had going on, in terms of a lot of my work came from external validation, etc. We like we’ve got to be honest, I’m not talking about hunky dory. We’re laying on lily pads eating grapes, and you know, having wine poured for us by some Egyptian gods or something. It’s about understanding there are things we need to do for five but it’s for finite periods of time. The difficulty comes when people exist in that state, full stop, and they don’t believe there’s another way. If you look at again, ADHD, I call them my puffs, my passions, obsessions, and fascinations. One of my pet Have is plant time lapse videos, go on to YouTube and look at a plant time lapse video, there are periods of time where that plant has to dig like you put a seed in the ground, it has to burst out of that husk burrow and dig really deep down to anchor itself in the earth. And then it has to push itself upwards through that husk, a very delicate imagine a Daisy has to push its way through all of that soil, then it needs to do another massive push to get through the soil onto the other side. But what we do is we keep pushing and borrowing, pushing and borrowing, and don’t give ourselves the space to actually experience that growth. That pushing and borrowing isn’t going to support that growth. When I first started my business, I was pushing and borrowing and pushing and borrowing. And I made enough money to because I was doing independent social work alongside my business until I made enough money to cover my essential needs. So that’s number one. We need to understand the money we need to make. Not the money according to when I first came to coaching was all about six figure this six figure that whilst I was chasing that six figure I was that panting dog, I need to do this, I need to do that I need to do the other.

When I actually looked at my figures and thought to myself, Well, I never earned more than 47,000 pounds a year as a local authority social worker. And that was before tax. So what I was taking home was less than that. And we will call we were able to go on holiday, my daughter didn’t go without. So then I recognised six figures is somewhere I want to get to. But my safety, like my security amount is half of that. So let me focus on doing that. I was only able to do that because I slowed down and had a look at what was going on around me. Then, when I slow down and looked at what was going on around me and how I wanted to live. I was able to see that doing a 12 week program here, an eight week program there. Not only was it not a service to me, it wasn’t a service to my clients. And I learned that because I did a 12 week program. And three months after that program ended, one of my clients messaged me and said, I can’t believe I’m out here doing this thing I never thought I’d be able to do during the time we work together. She said I just wanted you to know that that was so sumptuous. I’m only now really processing a lot of the stuff we did.

So I thought, ah, that not only do I need longer, that piece of work needs longer. So I transformed business to work with me as I am, instead of me fitting into what at that time was the coaching industry standard. And I don’t know about lots of people. But what I was seeing, no, there weren’t many people that had a year long program at that time. And I thought, well, this is what’s best for me and how I want to live. And I thought to myself, I could create a year long program and structure it. So that one program gives me the income I got from my sick my last Social Work salary. So I’ve looked at I slowed it down enough to look at all of that data and create something that I could share in a way that was sustainable for me. And the people I work with gave them the opportunity to really immerse themselves in the work and not just do the work from an intellectual basis to actually be with the work so they could integrate that body of work. And I literally went from just about making two grand and some change per month to creating one product that created a minimum of 47,000 pounds for that one product. If I hadn’t slowed down and assessed and had a look, I wouldn’t be able to do that. If I wanted to. I could have like really rested on my laurels. Even that language is a little bit problematic. But I could have really just thought, Okay, I’m cool. But it gave me the level of security I needed to be grounded enough to start to grow. And that is when I had my first six figure year, working about 21 hours a week. So when you are intentional, and you understand what you need, and you’re not just doing the work, like from an external basis, you’re starting from the inside out so that your work is of service to you and your clients as well. You’re able to show up in the best way for them and make the money you need and something that is very strong for me because of my beliefs in social justice and equity and all of that I was able to do that in a way where I felt like you got to get in a damn great bargain with this price, but not mugging myself off and making the amount of money I needed to make to be secure. And that gave me the safety I needed to go on and do other things. I was having my naps during the day, on day 25 to 28 of the cycle, I was going to the gym, if I fancied going to the Peace Garden in my local park, to go and do some journaling, I was able to do that, and still show up and make the money I needed to make and be more creative with the other offers, I wanted to share.

30:39

Oh my gosh, Tamu used the word sumptious earlier and this whole conversation has been utterly sumptious. I am so excited to read your work. I mean, this whole conversation has got a salivating over the prospect of holding it in my hand. For anyone else who is equally activated by this incredible conversation. How can we support your book launch? How can we make sure we get you into those best sellers, because I’d love to, I’d love for my listeners to help you achieve that.

31:08

Oh, thank you so much. That alone, right just feels like a soothing balm. And I just want to say really quickly, we often talk about social media and not being friendly and comparison and all of that. But overwhelmingly, I’ve been so supported by the people I connect with on social media, I just want to say like, look out for those kinds of people, that means so much to me, thank you, Polly like really, really. And in relation to my book, if you could pre order like that, that that was a ding from the universe. If you could pre order, that would be wonderful. Because as a brand new offer pre orders give retailers confidence in stocking the book. So if you could pre order the book, that would be fantastic. Anybody that pre orders the book, by the fourth of March will also get access to two lovely pre order bonuses. One is a be your nervous systems best friend, course self paced course you can do it at your leisure, it’s going to give you lots of great intel about your nervous system and what serves you well. Some people have said it changed their lives. So it’s a really great course it’s not a bonus for the sake of it. And also a really beautiful befriending your nervous system body scan. So that would be utterly wonderful. And then my next ask is that you review the book. So once you’ve read it, if it’s going to be like a two star review, I don’t want but if it’s going to be like three styles plus, then please do leave a review. Wherever you purchase the book, that would be utterly wonderful. And you can find me on Instagram at Tamu te a me Thomas t h o m a s.

32:48

Beautiful and we’ll make sure the links are below in the show notes so you can get access to all of the good stuff. Oh my gosh, thank you so much today, Tamu, and really, really excited to hear about all this success with your book as it comes out. Thank  you so much. Thanks, everyone.

33:05

Well, that’s it. I hope you enjoyed that incredible conversation with Tamu. Tune in next week to learn more about our webinars dead. And of course if you enjoy today’s episode, please do share it. I would love for our conversation to reach as many ears as possible. This is such a valuable conversation and beyond that Tamu’s book is going to be incredible and I would love for my listeners, that’s you to play a role in helping her get to the bestseller list. So whether you’re buying the book, or sharing this episode, so it reaches as many people as possible, you will be supporting TAMUU to really create an incredible impact on the world with her amazing book and help this conversation reach as many people as possible. See you next week